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Bill Cahill
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| Posted: 14 March 2012 at 6:01pm | IP Logged
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My stereo side also has 1B stamped. I wonder if two different pressing plants put it out differently, because my stereo side does not have the talking. Hykker is the 2:53 stereo edit that you have feature album mix then, simply starting it later, with the talking off to one channel?
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Hykker
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| Posted: 16 March 2012 at 5:51am | IP Logged
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As I noted in a private email to Bill & John, this has become a red face moment for yours truly. I could have sworn on a stack of Whitburns that my 2:53 copy had the talking, but I played it last night and there was none. I can only surmise that someone broke into my house and did a switcheroo substituting a visually identical copy that did not have the talking.
Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.
As they say, memory is the second thing to go....
Edited by Hykker on 16 March 2012 at 5:52am
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 16 March 2012 at 11:54am | IP Logged
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Hykker wrote:
| As they say, memory is the second thing to go.... |
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My hearing seems to be several laps ahead of my memory in that race. :)
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 16 March 2012 at 11:34pm | IP Logged
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OK, I just want to make sure I have everything straight here regarding Chicago's "Does Everybody Really Know What Time It Is?":
==> Commercial 45 version is in mono, runs 3:17, and has no talking.
==> Long DJ 45 side running 3:17 is the same in every way as the commercial 45 version.
==> Short DJ 45 sides running 2:53 were issued in mono and stereo and neither have the talking.
==> LP version is in stereo, runs 4:33, and is the only version that has the talking.
Do I have this all summarized correctly?
Edited by Todd Ireland on 16 March 2012 at 11:37pm
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 17 March 2012 at 9:44am | IP Logged
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Todd, yes, that's the short story. As soon as I have all the information gathered from other contributors, I'll be posting a detailed analysis under the song title's thread.
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KentT
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| Posted: 19 March 2012 at 8:30am | IP Logged
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First issue of the 45 had the jazzy piano intro and talking. Second issue of the single had the jazzy piano intro chopped off and no talking. Second version was the bigger hit. First version was a fair hit and Columbia reissued the 45 with the new mix and edit and had a big hit.
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 19 March 2012 at 12:59pm | IP Logged
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KentT wrote:
| First issue of the 45 had the jazzy piano intro and talking. Second issue of the single had the jazzy piano intro chopped off and no talking. Second version was the bigger hit. First version was a fair hit and Columbia reissued the 45 with the new mix and edit and had a big hit. |
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Are you referring to the promo or commercial issue, Kent?
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 19 March 2012 at 4:11pm | IP Logged
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KentT wrote:
(from another thread:)
"Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?". First single release on the old style label has the jazz vamp intro on it and the talking in the break. The re-released single had the jazz vamp edited out and no talking in the break. Version 1 was a fair seller, version 2 was a big hit. |
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KentT wrote:
| First issue of the 45 had the jazzy piano intro and talking. Second issue of the single had the jazzy piano intro chopped off and no talking. Second version was the bigger hit. First version was a fair hit and Columbia reissued the 45 with the new mix and edit and had a big hit. |
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Kent, are you confusing the chart and release history of "Does Anybody Really Know..." with that of the 1969 and 1971 chart runs of "Questions 67 And 68"? When you say "version 1 was a fair seller, version 2 was a big hit" what chart data are you citing to back up this claim? There was only one chart run for "Does Anybody Really Know..." so even if there *had* been a "version 1" and a "version 2," how can you so specifically break down v.1 versus v.2 sales data for something that would not have been similarly accounted for in the charts?
When you indicate that this "first version" was issued "on the old style label," are you referring to the all-red U.S. Columbia label used from the mid-'60s until 1970? My 3:17, no-talking stock copy happens to be on that same "old style label," too.
No one else on the board has thus far reported to have found this "first version" on a 45, either promo or stock. Please provide some specifics, including the actual listed time on the label, matrix numbers or label scans or photos.
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KentT
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| Posted: 19 March 2012 at 6:01pm | IP Logged
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First pressing had 3:20 playing time and all Red label. I suspect it was short lived. Has a 1A matrix. Has talking. Second pressing was 3:17 and had 1B matrix onward. No talking and most common version. My example got very cueburned and got replaced with the common pressing. Second pressing also on all Red label. I'll see if I can find another.
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TomDiehl1
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| Posted: 20 March 2012 at 2:41am | IP Logged
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KentT wrote:
| First pressing had 3:20 playing time and all Red label. I suspect it was short lived. Has a 1A matrix. Has talking. Second pressing was 3:17 and had 1B matrix onward. No talking and most common version. My example got very cueburned and got replaced with the common pressing. Second pressing also on all Red label. I'll see if I can find another. |
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The promotional copy of Columbia 4-45264 I just picked up at a record show on Sunday (I have at least two or three other promo copies in storage but have no idea what's on them without accessing them), is the 3:17/2:53 mono/mono, matrix numbers match what was listed earlier in this thread, the 3:17 is a 1A stamper (no talking) and the 2:53 is a 1B stamper (also no talking). Unimportant to the rest of this thread but I found it amusing that the 2:53 side has a bit of cueburn on it while the 3:17 side has none, since it seems most markets likely played the longer side.
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KentT
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| Posted: 20 March 2012 at 5:45am | IP Logged
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On the promos, I was looking at some on MusicStack and noticed this got Re-Serviced. Wonder if that is the key to this mystery? I'll dig through the station archives and see if I can find original and re-serviced.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 20 March 2012 at 6:37am | IP Logged
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KentT wrote:
| On the promos, I was looking at some on MusicStack and noticed this got Re-Serviced. Wonder if that is the key to this mystery? I'll dig through the station archives and see if I can find original and re-serviced. |
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No, it is not.
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KentT
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| Posted: 20 March 2012 at 3:37pm | IP Logged
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Apparently, I was remembering things wrongly. The only issue with talking is the unedited LP version (the Hall Of Fame single used that). Both copies of the original single I came home with were 3:17 and no talking. CRS is devastating. But I now know.
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Bill Cahill
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| Posted: 20 March 2012 at 4:43pm | IP Logged
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My 3:17 stock singles (1A) and promo (1B) clock out to nearly 3:20 with reverb.
Here's what I know about the Chicago stock and DJ 45s leading up to "Saturday in the Park"
1969: "Question 67 and 68"/"Listen": Radio station copies were a 3:07/4:45. I don't know if "Listen was ever issued on a DJ copy in 1969. Question 67 & 68 was a much hotter mono mix than the later 45, with vocals and percussion hotter. Different edit than the 1971 single, Lots of compression/limiting. B Side: "Listen", on the stock copy is a dedicated mono mix with lots of compression/limiting/EQ.
1969: "Beginnings", my DJ copy has Beginnings in mono on both sides listed at 2:47. While James William Guarcio stated that he did all the edits, I suspect he merely approved them, as this 45 has all the tell tale signs of the typical Columbia/Epic editing being done at the time. Artists kept supplying long songs, so Columbia/Epic basically cut them down to 3 minute commercials for the LPs. The 11 edits on Beginnings resembles the re-working of the DJ copy of "Are You Ready" by Pacific Gas and Electric, and the repeating hooks in the DJ copy of the Raiders "Just Seventeen", and "Long Dark Road" by the Hollies. And there was the restructuring of Santana's "No One To Depend On". I suspect these are all from the same editor. This editor had little regard for the way the artist created the recording, it was his job to make songs "hooky hits". (I'm assuming it's a him, in 1969 few women were editing tape) Sounds like a little compression and EQ added for brightness, but otherwise it sounds like they used a stereo source and simply summed it. Could have been remixed to mono, hard to tell. B Side was "Poem 58" with the intro cut off. I don't believe a stereo version of these two edits was issued, or prepared.
1970: Make Me Smile/Colour My World: Stock copies in stereo, and the DJ copy I have is Make Me Smile mono/stereo. Mono version sounds like it's simply summed with some EQ for AM radio, however it sounds like it was edited separately, as the last edit sounds slightly looser than the stereo side.
1970: 25 or 6 to 4/Where Do We Go From Here: I don't have the DJ copy but the stock copy was "back to mono" for whatever reason. Sounds EQed and compressed a bit.
1970: "Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is"/"Listen". Mono stock release. Since Chicago III wasn't ready yet Columbia went back to the Chicago Transit Authority LP and made a new mono mix without the talking and created a new stereo mix for radio, however I've only found this stereo mix to be the 2:53 version, I have yet to find a 3:17 stereo copy of this DJ single mix. "Listen" was on the B side but was not EQed as bright as the 1969 release and not as compressed. Might just be summed.
1971: "Free"/"Free Country". Stereo stock copies, DJ 45 is mono/stereo but the mono side sounds like the typical "add a little compression and brighten it with EQ" and that's it. Could just be a sum on the mono side, I don't hear any mix differences.
1971: "Lowdown"/"Lonliness is Just A Word" Stock copies sound like they are just the LP cuts on both tracks in stereo, the DJ copy is stereo/mono "Lowdown", with the mono side possibly a designated mono mix, Peter Cetera's "oh yeah" right before the guitar solo is much lower on the mono copy, it's more compressed (making the intro louder than the stereo copy), the drums seem a bit hotter, and it's EQed brighter.
1971: "Beginnings"/"Colour My World". What do you do with nothing else on Chicago III worth issuing and a four record "Live at Carnege Hall" with no single potentials? Go back to Chicago Transit Authority. Both sides are in mono on both the stock and DJ 45s, I suspect that Colour My World was summed to mono because Beginnings was in mono and there was no stereo version made, so this makes both sides "match" as a mono single. There was a promo with an "A" designation for both of these songs. So, Beginnings is the same 1969 release except there's what sounds like an overload on the bottom end right before the vocal comes in, it says 2:45 on the label instead of 2:47 but it's the same track.
1971:"Question 67 & 68"/"I'm A Man" "Beginings/Colour My World" worked and they were still dealing with Carnege Hall so let's edit two more! They opted to create a new edit of Question 67 and 68, possibly so the single could be in stereo, or they couldn't find the 1868 tape. In any event the single was stereo on both sides with some pretty sloppy edits. The mono DJ "Question 67 & 69/I'm A Man" DJ 45 were possibly just sums, but they certainly EQed and compressed them a bit for AM radio, plus the edits on "I'm A Man" are not as sloppy. (I'm a Man sounds especially good for AM radio with the EQ and compression on it) The first edit on "Question 67 and 68" is a little looser on the mono side, but less sloppy on the second edit. There was also a stereo/stereo "Question 67 and 68" which had one side "English Version" and the other side "Japanese Version". Obviously the Hall of Fame series used this as a source as many of those show "Question 67 and 68" (English Version), which is a totally unnecessary designation since the Japanese version was NOT on the other side of the Hall of Fame 45.
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 20 March 2012 at 6:22pm | IP Logged
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Bill,
I commend you on your detailed look back to Chicago's
recordings from 1969-1972.
It amazing how many oldies stations I hear these days
regionally that play the 'neither' edit of "Beginnings"
from the GoldDiscs. I rarely hear the full version anymore.
I've offered to send them dubs from near mint 45's to no
avail.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 20 March 2012 at 9:07pm | IP Logged
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KentT wrote:
| Apparently, I was remembering things wrongly. |
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You seemed so certain before.
"Has a 1A matrix."
"My example got very cueburned and got replaced with the common pressing."
Perhaps it was among those 15,000 LPs lost in the Great Radio Station Fire I remember reading about on another forum back in 2007.
KentT wrote:
| The only issue with talking is the unedited LP version (the Hall Of Fame single used that). |
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Per earlier in this thread: The Hall Of Fame reissue is the mono, no-talking 2:53 DJ 45 edit.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 20 March 2012 at 9:34pm | IP Logged
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eriejwg wrote:
Bill,
I commend you on your detailed look back to Chicago's
recordings from 1969-1972.
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Ditto that. Thanks, Bill!
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 20 March 2012 at 9:39pm | IP Logged
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Bill: x3! Great stuff; appreciate the effort!!
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KentT
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| Posted: 21 March 2012 at 5:21am | IP Logged
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Bill,
Thanks for the superb overview on Chicago 45 singles. How reliable was Columbia on listing accurate timing on reissue labels? Seeing scans of some Chicago Columbia Hall Of Fame singles, I suspect the timings are off. And your timings are dead on compared to the Chicago singles I own from the era.
Edited by KentT on 21 March 2012 at 5:23am
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Hykker
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| Posted: 21 March 2012 at 5:51am | IP Logged
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Bill Cahill wrote:
| 1970: 25 or 6 to 4/Where Do We Go From Here: I don't have the DJ copy but the stock copy was "back to mono" for whatever reason. Sounds EQed and compressed a bit. |
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I have a promo and a stock copy of this. Both are mono. The stock copy is on what was a very short-lived label design that was apparently used for only a couple months in the summer of 1970. I remember the promo copy we played during the song's chart run being a white-label version of this, but my promo is on the older style label that preceded it.
Edited by Hykker on 21 March 2012 at 5:52am
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Wrong Edits on new Chicago Best Of CD
