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Paul Haney
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| Posted: 05 July 2024 at 5:25am | IP Logged
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AutumnAarilyn wrote:
| Would you consider an R&B annual? |
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We did the Country Annual, which didn't sell much. Our Country books always outsell the R&B, so
it makes no business sense for us to do an R&B Annual.
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AutumnAarilyn
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| Posted: 05 July 2024 at 8:43pm | IP Logged
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Short of typing the info of the book into a spreadsheet
for private, personal use, I'd have no other way to
access what were the hits of a given year. The
disclosure at the beginning of the book warns against
that like it's some big material loss for Billboard. The
information is there but I can't access it because your
book wasn't organized in that fashion which could have
been included as an appendix. Perhaps you'd need an
additional license from Billboard. You could have set it
up that way but opted to do that for only the better
selling genres over subsequent books. That's leads to
marginalization.
I don't have every Billboard publication as I wasn't even
born during much of the era that I collect. Does
Billboard have a subscription where I can access the R&B
chart for the third week of September in 1974? If it's
anything like what allmusic has become, then it's not
worth it even if it's free.
The individual magazines are no longer obviously in print
because they were periodicals. I'd like to get everyone
but at this point that's not feasible. Some get posted
online but that's only some and subject to removal.
Billboard was always at a crossroads of becoming
irrelevant with their stubbornness.
Would you consider a special request book? I'd pay 4
figures for a book that printed off every R&B and jazz
related chart. I'd pay 5 figures for a book that
accurately depicted radio station playlists across the
country from early 60's-mid 90's in the R&B and jazz
genres.
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kingofskiffle
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| Posted: 06 July 2024 at 2:01am | IP Logged
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AutumnAarilyn: Billboard does have a website listing most of their charts going back to 1958 (or whenever that specific chart started, such as the Adult Contemporary in 1961)
A link to the current chart is here : https://www.billboard.com/charts/r-b-hip-hop-songs/
And a link to the third week of September 1974 : https://www.billboard.com/charts/r-b-hip-hop-songs/1974-09-2 1/
Yes, it is behind a pay wall, but it's also relatively easy to navigate through. I've not used AllMusic in years so I cant compare the experience.
There are also websites and libraries that have older back issues - I'm in the United Kingdom and the British Library (our national library) has them on what's called Open Access (free to anybody who has a free reader pass) to view going
back to the early 1960's. Online archives of full issues exist as well and Google teamed up with Billboard years ago to scan them.
Here is a (hugely long) link to the 24 Oct 1942 issue - Page 25 has the first R&B chart they ever made. (You may need to copy the text to your web browser)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LQwEAAAAMBAJ&printsec=fr ontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
Since Billboard seemed to collaborate with Google these are unlikely to be removed.
Others have typed up the charts to gather the information in a different format and utilising different methodology to the Record Research books for ranking or sorting. Some of that exists as spreadsheets online and some of that exists on a
single users computer as thats what they have typed. I'm fairly sure the stuff that exists online via a google search for Billboard Full Issues 1942 (for example) is all legal, as otherwise Billboard would have found it and removed it - I'm just
one guy so if I can find it then Billboard (looking to protect their sources) would do the same with greater efficiency. Just look at how quickly videos of sporting events get taken down from various platforms for example.
I'm going to post below two links to an export for my own database - I hope that this is okay and please message me if I am not supposed to and I will happily remove them.
The first is to the chart for 21 Sep 1974 (You may need to copy the text to your web browser)
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/chszykyniv4x39sqqad12/1974-09 -21-Billboard-R-B-Hip-Hop-Singles.pdf?rlkey=c30y1dfe3454uxsz dn69dpyyw&dl=0
and the second is to an Annual Type listing, but going off calendar year (so 1 Jan-31 Dec 1974) as opposed to how the Record Research guys do it for the R&B Chart of 1974. (You may need to copy the text to your web browser)
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/c0mjgyz3ewvtbii7sthuu/Annual- 1974-Billboard-R-B-Hip-Hop-Singles.pdf?rlkey=r34ww0hqtlc90sy fcdzftszhe&dl=0
Again, if these are not allowed let me know and I'll remove.
As Paul has said above Record Research is a commercial company and while this would be relatively easy for them to do, they are not going to do anything that is not going to make them money. I bought the Country Annual and love it - I
currently have about 45 RR books across Cashbox, Record World, etc and they are fantastic - my own Pop Annual 2023 is on pre order and I can't wait to get an upgrade on the 1999 edition I have.
Edited by kingofskiffle on 06 July 2024 at 2:03am
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AutumnAarilyn
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| Posted: 06 July 2024 at 3:45am | IP Logged
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Thanks. 1974 was just one of about 30 years that I want all
chart info from. I did find some Billboard mags on Google
and love reading especially when it gets into "new
technology and formats". Seeing the forward view from
hindsight is quite interesting.
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Paul Haney
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| Posted: 06 July 2024 at 4:32am | IP Logged
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If it's individual charts you're looking for, WorldRadioHistory.com has tons of actual Billboard issues
scanned. Not only that, but they also have back issues of several other music industry publications. It's
one of my favorite sites on the net.
There's no way we (Record Research) could do any "specialty" projects. For the past several years we have
struggled mightily to stay in business. Printing costs have skyrocketed in the past few years, and we have
done our best NOT to pass those costs on to our customers. In addition, the post office now raises shipping
rates twice per year. Standard Mail to foreign countries has been especially brutal lately. The other
issue is that we are now down to basically just me working on the research and editing of the books.
Frankly, I was hoping to be doing less work at this stage in my career, not more! So, we will only be doing
periodic updates on our best-selling titles. I've just started on an updated Country Singles book and there
is enough work on that to keep me busy for the next several months.
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Hykker
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| Posted: 06 July 2024 at 5:30am | IP Logged
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AutumnAarilyn wrote:
I don't have every Billboard
publication as I wasn't even
born during much of the era that I collect. Does
Billboard have a subscription where I can access the R&B
chart for the third week of September in 1974? |
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As Paul noted, Worldradiohistory.com has archived scans of most of the industry trades you can browse thru at your leisure, including
the week of Sept 21, 1974. https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Music/Billboar d/70s/1974/Billboard%201974-09-21.pdf
Might be a good time to lose the attitude. RR is a small business and it's not reasonable to expect them to put together publications
that don't sell just because one music collector wishes such a book exists.
Edited by Hykker on 06 July 2024 at 5:38am
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edtop40
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| Posted: 06 July 2024 at 7:41am | IP Logged
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I guess there is a delay in finishing the print?
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edtop40
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Chartman
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| Posted: 06 July 2024 at 7:49am | IP Logged
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A poster on the Ukmix.org web site tabulated a R&B Annual (and other
genres including C&W) spreadsheet pretty much in the same format as the
Pop Annual. Included are all the charts from 1944 onwards (used Cashbox
charts for the time Billboard stopped publishing R&B charts) plus complete
chart runs. Very reliable and accurate.A labor of love that was shared.
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Paul Haney
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| Posted: 06 July 2024 at 8:28am | IP Logged
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edtop40 wrote:
| I guess there is a delay in finishing the print? |
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When we advertise a new book, the release dates are always estimated. We have to use the pre-orders to pay for the printing
of the book, and even at that, things can get cut pretty close. We're actually not far off as this one is pretty close to
the initial schedule.
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mjb50
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| Posted: 06 July 2024 at 11:44am | IP Logged
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Guess the cat's out of the bag. Yes, many freely distributed spreadsheets of varying quality indeed exist, and some of them even originally used the Record Research books as starting points. I've amassed a pretty big collection.
I have always tried to avoid mentioning the spreadsheets among discussions of the Record Research books, though. It seems in kind of poor taste, especially given the company's recent struggles, and their ongoing challenge of creating books that provide a value-add beyond just compiling data.
As with file-sharing, we all probably fall at different points on the spectrum of opinions on this topic. I like to think that there's plenty of room for everyone to do what they do.
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Paul Haney
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| Posted: 06 July 2024 at 1:17pm | IP Logged
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I've been aware of the various spreadsheets for many years now and I actually have zero problem with them. I realize they were done as a labor of
love and frankly, the small handful of people that know about them really doesn't affect our business. In fact, I know that many of those same
spreadsheet creators are (or have been) some of our best customers over the years. They fill a niche that we just can't afford to do (such as the
R&B Annual).
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AutumnAarilyn
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| Posted: 08 July 2024 at 4:25am | IP Logged
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I didn't mean to be overly critical and I think I came off
that way so I apologize, Paul. I use the album and singles
books almost daily. I can see why in the days before
Discogs how the "Song Title Section" towards the back would
be more valuable and of more use than an a weekly add list.
Thank you for links and input as I've really binged on the
"Radio and records magazine" site and that has some good
info on it.
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Archives Guy
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| Posted: 08 July 2024 at 7:54am | IP Logged
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Paul, I understand how Record Research has shrunk as a
company over the years. I am thankful for ANY books that you
publish and release. I will always be a fan of your work. I
wish you the best of luck for the future!!!
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jebsib
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| Posted: 08 July 2024 at 9:24am | IP Logged
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Hear! Hear! Thanks for all your efforts over the decades, Paul!
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PopArchivist
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| Posted: 08 July 2024 at 10:07am | IP Logged
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Paul Haney wrote:
I've been aware of the various spreadsheets for many years now and I actually have zero problem with them. I realize they were done as a labor of
love and frankly, the small handful of people that know about them really doesn't affect our business. In fact, I know that many of those same
spreadsheet creators are (or have been) some of our best customers over the years. They fill a niche that we just can't afford to do (such as the
R&B Annual). |
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I agree Paul, it takes a dedicated fan to compile all that stuff anyways. Most of us buy certain niche books because we all want one source to agree on, and Whitburn's name carries weight when it comes to annuals, pop books and chart positions.
__________________
"I'm a pop archivist, not a chart philosopher, I seek to listen, observe and document the chart position of music."
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aaronk
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I also pre-ordered a long time ago and look forward to the finished book! Keep up the great work, Paul!
__________________
Aaron Kannowski
Uptown Sound
91.9 The Peak - Classic Hip Hop
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PopArchivist
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| Posted: 16 July 2024 at 9:05am | IP Logged
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Paul Haney wrote:
They fill a niche that we just can't afford to do (such as the
R&B Annual). |
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While Whitburn's Pop Annual 1900-1939 is out there, when I get around to it the information I have from the Pop ME excel file I keep specifically for the rankings and chart information from those years.
I was glad the annual now goes from 1950 onward, it is always odd but understandable why Whitburn started at 1955, the beginning of the rock era.
But honestly if you do another annual it would be great if you went from 1900-2029 at that point. Not much demand but having the history of chart music in your hand for 130 years of it is impressive to say the least....
__________________
"I'm a pop archivist, not a chart philosopher, I seek to listen, observe and document the chart position of music."
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Chartman
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| Posted: 16 July 2024 at 11:13am | IP Logged
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PopArchivist wrote:
While Whitburn's Pop Annual 1900-1939 is out there, when
I get around to it the information I have from the Pop ME
excel file I keep specifically for the rankings and chart
information from those years. |
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Whitburn's "The Pop Hits 1940-1954" book has the yearly
Pop Annual Information for 1940 through 1954. The new
book added the time and label information for 1950-1954.
The list in the Pop Hits book included complete chart
runs (Best Seller, Juke Box & Disc Jockey) for all #1
songs. A reminder that the first Best Sellers chart
appeared on July 27, 1940. Joel used the Record Buying
Guide for his 1940s chart prior to this. The guide was
was a song chart (combined all versions of the song by
many artists) not a singles chart and quite different
than the Best Sellers chart. Just compare the 7/20/40 RBG
with the 7/27/40 BS and you'll see the difference. I
wouldn't have included the RBG info, but it's Joel's
book!
Whitburn's "Pop Memories 1900-1940" book contains very
specific chart information BUT there were no national
charts prior to July 27, 1940. A synopsis of where this
information came from is presented in the book BUT this
data is Steve Sullivan's best guestimate based on his
research. Excellent resource for a list of recordings
that were popular, but the detailed chart data is not
supported by any verifiable source(s). Whatever chart
data was utilized doesn't support the detailed printed
results.
Sheets of weekly charts may have been created, I'm not
sure, but for me the chart data is fiction. Edward Foote
Gardner published "Popular Songs Of The Twentieth
Century" which included monthly Top 20 Song charts. His
best estimate of the most popular songs (not singles as
no artist was listed). His Record Buying Guide. I briefly
compared the #1 listed in Gardner's and Whitburn's books.
Lots of similiarities but also lots of major differences.
That's to be expected as different sources will have
different methodology and results.
Back to your original wish... adding 1940-1949 to the
next edition of the Pop Annual is logical and doesn't
appear to add lots and lots of pages, but the book is
already 1,000 pages! Adding pre-1940 yearly lists is not
really supported by any data.
PS The Pop Memories data was determined well before Paul
started working at Record Research.
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RoknRobnLoxley
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| Posted: 16 July 2024 at 12:24pm | IP Logged
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FYI, the 2 Whitburn "Pop Memories" books don't have a yearly Pop Annual section in them, but do have a list of #1
records by year; the first book 1890-1954, the 2nd book 1900-1940.
However, the "A Century Of Pop Music" book does give a ranked Pop Annual section of 40 records per year 1900-1999 (only
30 records for 1900).
So all together, you can get some kind of a good grasp of 1890-1940, before Billboards singles chart began in 1940.
Based on the formula Joel went with. And that's definitely worth something !!
But there were other "charts" prior to Billboard 1940, which Joel lists in the intros of his above books. Whether they
were record sales, record airplay, or sheet music sales. Variety and Your Hit Parade come to mind.
Rock on...
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Paul Haney
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| Posted: 16 July 2024 at 2:18pm | IP Logged
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We actually have the weekly "charts" created by Steve
Sullivan for the Pop Memories project(s). I'm well aware
of the various opinions surrounding Pop Memories. IMO,
it's a useful introduction to that era of recorded music
and is a great starting point to dig further if
interested.
BTW, we were hoping to have the Pop Annual here by today,
but the printer had a couple of delays, so the books are
now scheduled to arrive next week. I'm just as anxious
as anyone to see the final product! We have upgraded our
shipping system, so once the U.S. orders get scanned at
the post office, everyone will be emailed a tracking
number.
Edited by Paul Haney on 16 July 2024 at 2:18pm
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Topic: Pop Annual (1950-2023)
