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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 16 February 2005 at 10:43am | IP Logged
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I recently picked up a copy of Saga's "On the Loose" at a local Half Price Books & Records store. The run time printed on the label is 3:35. I timed it and came up with an actual run time of 3:28 (although I suspect that my turntable runs a little bit slow). It can probably be concluded then that the lone CD appearance of "On the Loose" in the 10th edition should contain the comment: (LP version).
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 16 February 2005 at 11:43am | IP Logged
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I should re-state that my turntable is believed to run a little bit fast, not slow. I keep forgetting that shorter run times result from faster speed, not slower!
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| Posted: 17 February 2005 at 6:25am | IP Logged
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I timed this 45 and came up with a running time of 3:33.
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edtop40
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| Posted: 06 April 2008 at 10:22am | IP Logged
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can the 45 be extracted from the lp version??
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:13pm | IP Logged
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No, Ed, it cannot. I attempted to re-create the 45 version from CD a couple of years ago, but I remember some unique audio on the 45 (or maybe it was on the LP) that prevented successful replication.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:53pm | IP Logged
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Well, I learn new things every day on this forum!
It turns out that the 45 can't be extracted from the LP due to a teeny tiny mix difference in the break.
I have the LP version on Worlds Apart (Polydor 821 479-2, "CD is manufactured by PolyGram in Hanover, West Germany", runs 4:10). This is probably one of the first batch of CDs pressed - it has the same smooth-top jewel case as the so-called "target" pressings from Europe. FYI - the sound is fantastic from this CD, and in the unlikely case that you find one of these, you should grab it.
I used to have the US CD version of Worlds Apart, on Portrait, but I don't remember how it sounded.
Apparently, it's not listed in the database, but the 45 version is available on Rock On 1983 Vol. 2 (Madacy/Sony BMG A93764 ROK 2 51373, rel. 2005, runs 3:35) - details on this CD below...
There's an edit in the first chorus at about 0:50. If you start counting beats in the first chorus, starting with #1 being the downbeat that finishes the short drum fill" (check - beat #11 is the word "on"), then edit at the snare on beat #14, and cut out 32 beats.
You're good until the break around 2:09. What I had always thought was a shortening of the break to eliminate the super-cool-sounding organ sound isn't quite right. If you starting counting beats on the hi-hat-only portion of the break, with beat #1 falling on the logical downbeat, then the true 45 has a kick drum on beats #10, 12 and 14. The only place in the LP version that has such a kick drum on the off-beats has the cool-sounding organ over it, so the 45 is indeed a different mix, in addition to a few edits.
Love the song, though - it's one of my absolute favorites from the early '80s. Never been another song that sounded like it, before or since!
As for the recent Rock On CDs:
It appears that BMG got the rights to Madacy's Rock On series from the mid-'90s, and have recently (2005-ish) added a "Vol. 2" to various years in the series. Where the older Rock Ons were Cema Special Products and were mostly usually very good-sounding digital clones of tracks from other CDs, all the Vol. 2's exclusively use Sony/BMG tracks, with about 90% from the old CBS labels, and the others including Hall & Oates, Rick Springfield, Alan Parsons, and a few others that look out of place to old timers like me. The sound quality on these recent Vol. 2 additions is completely hit-and-miss, with some tracks being completely compressed/maximized, others having great dynamic range but sounding like they were severely noise-reduced (see Wham's "Wake Me Up Before You Go Go" on another of the Vol. 2 editions, and Kenny Loggins' "Heart To Heart" on this one), and still others sounding just fine. A hodge-podge, to be sure. Interestingly, they used single versions on many tracks - on 1983 Vol. 2 alone, I see single versions of "Total Eclipse Of The Heart" (4:30 edit), "Africa", "Cum On Feel The Noise", "Der Kommissar", and "On The Loose".
If you're going to go hunting online for the Rock Ons, here's what you should keep in mind:
Original series - released in 1996 by Madacy, and often teamed up with Cema Special Markets/MCA/EMI or some other partner. A few (all?) were rereleased in 2004 with no changes to the mastering. Overall, excellent sound quality on these original releases - no tracks are compressed/maximized, and many borrow masterings from the comparable Time-Life collections. Highly recommended - I own most of these covering the '70s and '80s.
Later releases in 1998, which have titles of a year + a song, like Rock On 1981 Bette Davis Eyes or Rock On 1989 Miss You Like Crazy. Overall, sound quality is spotty on some tracks. On the few I have, I'll usually 2 or 3 out of the 12 tracks that are compressed/maximized. Buy if you find them cheap.
"Recent" releases from 2005 - the Vol. 2s for many years. Spotty sound, overall, but a pleasant surprise or two in finding many single edits from the CBS vaults.
Todd - if your turntable is telling you that the song runs 3:28, your turntable is WAY too fast, and you should probably look into a new turntable. Don't know how much $ you have to kick around, but if you want to buy one turntable that will outlive you, I'd consider a Technics 1200 - virtually unchanged in design since it was introduced around 1978, and the only electric device I know that has lasted 30 years without any redesigns. The $300-400 investment is well worth it, even just for the incredibly precise pitch control. I wouldn't trade mine for anything.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 06 April 2008 at 12:59pm
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 06 April 2008 at 7:18pm | IP Logged
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crapfromthepast wrote:
I have the LP version on Worlds Apart (Polydor 821 479-2, "CD is manufactured by PolyGram in Hanover, West Germany", runs 4:10). This is probably one of the first batch of CDs pressed - it has the same smooth-top jewel case as the so-called "target" pressings from Europe. FYI - the sound is fantastic from this CD, and in the unlikely case that you find one of these, you should grab it.
I used to have the US CD version of Worlds Apart, on Portrait, but I don't remember how it sounded. |
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My experience with import CDs released at the same time as their U.S. counterparts is that the sound quality is identical. However, it's possible there are a few exceptions out there I'm not aware of.
crapfromthepast wrote:
| Apparently, it's not listed in the database, but the 45 version is available on Rock On 1983 Vol. 2 (Madacy/Sony BMG A93764 ROK 2 51373, rel. 2005, runs 3:35) |
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That's great news, Ron! How would you describe the sound quality of "On the Loose" on that CD?
crapfromthepast wrote:
| Todd - if your turntable is telling you that the song runs 3:28, your turntable is WAY too fast, and you should probably look into a new turntable. Don't know how much $ you have to kick around, but if you want to buy one turntable that will outlive you, I'd consider a Technics 1200 - virtually unchanged in design since it was introduced around 1978, and the only electric device I know that has lasted 30 years without any redesigns. The $300-400 investment is well worth it, even just for the incredibly precise pitch control. I wouldn't trade mine for anything. |
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I posted my initial comments in this thread regarding the timing for the "On the Loose" 45 back in 2005. After Pat posted the correct run time, I realized right away my turntable was way out of whack and I haven't used it for timing purposes since. But I do appreciate your turntable recommendation.
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edtop40
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| Posted: 06 April 2008 at 7:43pm | IP Logged
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todd...did you try and use the vinyl 45's unique parts and splice them onto the edited cd version to see if we can come up with a 45 replica?
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 06 April 2008 at 8:00pm | IP Logged
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No, Ed, I haven't. I rely on Aaron to help me out with situations involving "vinyl splicing" since he has the right equipment and the expertise. But the good news is, we shouldn't even need to do any special editing since Ron claims the 45 version is available on the Rock On 1983, Vol. 2 various artist CD!
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 06 April 2008 at 8:51pm | IP Logged
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Can someone post a link to a retailer who has the Rock On 1983: Vol. 2 CD for sale? Can't find anything on Google.
I've got a stock 45 for this song on order now, but a CD copy as well would be very nice!
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edtop40
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| Posted: 07 April 2008 at 6:13am | IP Logged
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i can't find the disc anywhere.....music stack, gemm, amazon, allmusic, ebay, half.com......no luck....
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crapfromthepast
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Here's a link to the CD you're looking for on Amazon, but it's out of stock: http://www.amazon.com/Rock-1983-Vol-2-Various/dp/B000N0QXU8/ ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1207577119&sr=8-4
I'd describe the sound quality as fair. In a side-by-side comparison with the Worlds Apart CD it sounds a bit more muddy. The dynamic range is great, however, so there isn't any extra compression/maximization on that track. (There is maximization on "Down Under", "Hot Girls In Love" and "Goody Two Shoes" on the very same disc - quite a hodge podge of sources...) Of course, if you're currently using a 45, then the sound will be a substantial improvement!
Still don't know why Portrait chose to shorten such a perfectly constructed song. To my ears, they cut out the coolest part! Portrait did the same thing with Aldo Nova's "Fantasy" around the same time, and it always seemed unnecessary to me. That song also had a unique guitar solo on the 45, so it, too, couldn't be pieced together from the 45...
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995wlol
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| Posted: 08 October 2008 at 7:00pm | IP Logged
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I had been searching everywhere for the Rock On 1983 Vol. 2 CD since it was mentioned in this thread--nowhere to be found online. However, I just came across a copy at Best Buy and grabbed it!! There was an entire Rock On section under various artists titles (I didn't think to check if there were additional copies of 1983, vol 2). Perhaps they just pressed a new batch of the volume 2 series...
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Jody Thornton
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| Posted: 12 October 2008 at 8:21pm | IP Logged
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Todd Ireland wrote:
| I rely on Aaron to help me out with situations involving "vinyl splicing" since he has the right equipment and the expertise. |
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Hey Aaron, no question regarding your expertise, but what is the special equipment that you use? Just curious.
Cheers,
Jody Thornton
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aaronk
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| Posted: 12 October 2008 at 9:07pm | IP Logged
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Hey Jody,
I wouldn't call it "special," as much as it is many years of tinkering and practice. I use a Technics 1200 MKII turntable, an Audio Technica AT440MLa cartridge/stylus, and Cool Edit Pro (versions 1.2 and 2.1). The key is to find the cleanest vinyl you can get your hands on, dub it with the best sounding equipment you can (you really can't beat the AT440MLa for the price), and get the CEP settings just right so that only the noise disappears and nothing else. It's taken me years to perfect, but I think I've got it down pretty well.
Edited by aaronk on 12 October 2008 at 9:08pm
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 13 October 2008 at 7:14am | IP Logged
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Jody - I agree with Aaron. I also use a Technics 1200 MKII turntable, only my cartridge is Ortofon, and I also use a really old version of Cool Edit Pro.
I have an early-'80s vintage Realistic receiver, so I use the phono input for the turntable, and the line in/line out jacks, which were designed for a tape deck, to feed the inputs/outputs of the soundcard on my motherboard. (It's an old motherboard, and newer ones may not have the 1/8-inch jacks for input/output anymore. I haven't played with newer USB-driven soundcards.) Basically, the computer is hooked up as if it were a cassette deck.
A few points:
- Make sure your vinyl is fairly clean. I have collector friends who own liquid/vacuum cleaning machines. It really does get rid of a lot of the snap/crackle/pop from dirty records. For 7" singles that need serious cleaning, you can wash them in the sink with dishwashing liquid. Make sure that the water temperature is fairly close to room temperature, or the vinyl may warp a little due to thermal shock. Let the vinyl air-dry as much as possible, and use a lint-free cloth to dry the rest.
- Make sure that your equipment doesn't distort or clip at any point in the chain. You can usually tell from the waveforms if there's clipping. If one side of the waveform is consistently much smaller than the other, then you should check your settings.
- I would take issue with any noise reduction at all. I used to use some of the NR features in Cool Edit to reduce the background noise, but I found that it distorts the music, or sucks the life out of it. (There's endless discussion of noise reduction and audiophiles' objections to it at the mastering forum at stevehoffman.tv) I'd rather hear the track as my turntable played it, warts and all.
- If you can, leave a little silence at the beginning and end of the track. I leave 0.2 seconds at the intro and 2 seconds at the end. Not sure where I got these numbers, but I've been using them for 10 years, and they work nicely.
I'm sure there are other tips, but a good turntable and some digital editing tools (like the free Audacity) will get you pretty far.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 13 October 2008 at 8:35am | IP Logged
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crapfromthepast wrote:
| - I would take issue with any noise reduction at all. I used to use some of the NR features in Cool Edit to reduce the background noise, but I found that it distorts the music, or sucks the life out of it. |
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This is where getting the settings correct is key. I can send you some examples of where NR is done properly and sounds incredible. Just ask Todd or Brian, as they've heard many of my vinyl remasters.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 13 October 2008 at 10:29am | IP Logged
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Aaron - I never had any luck with getting the right settings to work without artifacts, so I just gave up on NR completely. I kinda like the gentle turntable rumble, or a little bit of surface noise, so it was no great loss.
I know the important thing for NR is a very gentle touch, and it sounds like you've pretty well figured out where that is. Good tool to have!
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 16 August 2010 at 9:54pm | IP Logged
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My 45 for "On The Loose" runs 3:35.
To add to the discussion, though a couple years old now, I second the AT 440MLa. Simply a fantastic cartridge. If you ever need to replace the stylus, they run almost as much as the cartridge/stylus together!!
In the last couple months, I've been using ClickRepair for pop/click removal. You have to tweak the settings to your liking though.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: "On the Loose" - Saga
