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sriv94
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OK, here's a strange question. I have the single version of Leo Sayer's "You Make Me Feel Like Dancing" from the Rhino Very Best Of Leo Sayer CD loaded on my iPod. While listening to it this morning, at the edit point at (1:45), the edit to my ears sounds a little awkward (almost like a little bit of silence precedes it, telling you an obvious edit is coming up). Since I have no vinyl to speak of, was it that way on the vinyl single?
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AndrewChouffi
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Yep!
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Todd Ireland
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I always wondered about that too!
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sriv94
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| Posted: 19 January 2011 at 8:32am | IP Logged
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Revisiting this, because as I listen to the 45 version on the T-L Sounds of the Seventies: 1977 Take Two disc, the edit is a lot less awkward. Which means one of those versions (either the T-L version or the Rhino version) is not the correct 45 version (which would probably mean an update to the database).
Can anyone confirm for sure how smooth the edit was on the vinyl 45?
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AndrewChouffi
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It wasn't smooth at all...
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KentT
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Indeed, not smooth and a little bit glitchy.
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sriv94
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| Posted: 20 January 2011 at 6:49pm | IP Logged
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Now that I've had the chance to hear it, I concur with Andy and Kent.
Meaning any version where the edit is smooth is not the correct 45 version and should probably be reflected in the database. I referenced the T-L 1977 Take Two CD above, but there may be others.
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aaronk
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I've long suspected there are many tracks on Rhino discs where they re-created the 45 versions by making their own edits. It's not an easy task to go and check them all, so it's always appreciated when someone can point out mistakes. Thank you, Doug!
I'm sure many of the Rhino edits are very close; however, if done with tape and a razor blade, they probably aren't 100% spot on.
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sriv94
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The irony here, Aaron, is that it's a Rhino disc that got it right and the T-L disc that got it wrong. That said, I don't know whether all the Rhino discs are right, nor do I know whether all the T-L discs are wrong.
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EdisonLite
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Yeah, I, too, thought that what I read was that Rhino got it right and Time-Life got it wrong. Speaking of spliced tapes and razor blades (as Aaron did), this brings up another point - All single versions that contain edits are one generation removed from the album versions, in terms of quality and tape hiss. So for all the CD choices we have these days for a song, it may be better to go with a newly edited version (if it TRULY matches the original 45 edit) because if the newly made edit was done digitally, it will be one generation better than using the tape of the actual single edit (and therefore, may be less hissy.) Just food for thought.
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aaronk
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sriv94 wrote:
| The irony here, Aaron, is that it's a Rhino disc that got it right and the T-L disc that got it wrong. That said, I don't know whether all the Rhino discs are right, nor do I know whether all the T-L discs are wrong. |
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Well, let me take my foot out of my mouth for a second... :)
I don't own very many of the Time-Life discs, so I can't really comment on those. But the Rhino discs seem to have a lot of strange mistakes, such as "45 version but :XX longer" or "unsuccessful attempt at creating the 45 version". I highly doubt that a lot of those instances are ones where they went to the record company for the source tape. For example, I'm pretty sure MCA only has one length/tape for the DJ edit of "Sweet Home Alabama," so it's probably another unsuccessful attempt by Rhino on their Billboard disc (it runs several seconds too long on that disc).
Another example is "Every 1's A Winner" by Hot Chocolate on the Super Hits series. I matched up their version to the actual 45, and the edit is slightly off. It's not off enough that you would notice when casually listening, but it doesn't match up exactly when you A/B the two.
This begs the question: How many of Rhino's edits are not from the original single master tapes?
EdisonLite, you are exactly right that custom edits (when done correctly) can sound better than the single master, since we aren't dubbing it to another tape for editing. I've made some custom edits for exactly that reason. The hissy 45 version of "Sister Christian" comes to mind as an example; the same edit made from a nice sounding LP version is far superior.
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The Hits Man
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aaronk wrote:
For example, I'm pretty sure MCA only
has one length/tape for the DJ edit of "Sweet Home
Alabama," so it's probably another unsuccessful attempt
by Rhino on their Billboard disc (it runs several seconds
too long on that disc).
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IIRC, The version on the Rhino Billboard CD is the
correct 45 version. The 45 ran slower than the usual LP
version. I recall quotes by Bill Inglot stating this.
I no longer have access to the database, so I can't see
what Pat wrote for it.
With Rhino, things were always hit and miss. I find I
often have to go back to the actual commercial 45s to get
the correct answer. Where they got some of their
sources, i'll never understand. many times, Inglot
attempted to recreate the 45 edits and let the tape run
longer than the 45.
But, let's not forget that some 45s were different than
others. I have a 45 of KC & The Sunshine Band's "That's
The Way I Like It" that fades earlier than other 45s i've
heard. The version found on all CDs with the 45 fade use
the longer one I don't have. So, both are correct.
It's been a long time, but I believe I sent Pat a dub of
my 45.
Edited by The Hits Man on 22 January 2011 at 8:23am
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sriv94
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The Hits Man wrote:
IIRC, The version on the Rhino Billboard CD is the
correct 45 version. The 45 ran slower than the usual LP
version. I recall quotes by Bill Inglot stating this.
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It may be slower, but not 17 seconds slower. They replicated the edit for the DJ 45 but didn't fade it out properly.
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KentT
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And also, there may be two different LP versions of this one. WB released a revised version of the Endless Flight LP. "When I Need You" was originally released without the Bobby Keys sax break. The Second version of the LP is the common version. So, Version two may be edited or mixed differently. I have an automation reel from Peters Productions which has the first version of "When I Need You" present.
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The Hits Man
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KentT wrote:
And also, there may be two different LP
versions of this one. |
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I have the original pressing without the sax solo. I never
saw a vinyl LP pressing with the sax solo on it.
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KentT
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My pressing of Endless Flight has the sax solo. Apparently must have been a late addition.
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crapfromthepast
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I don't remember which version got all the airplay when "You Make Me Feel Like Dancing" was a hit in 1976-77, but in subsequent years all I remember hearing is the 45 edit.
The LP version runs 3:36 on Chrysalis's All The Best (1993). This is a great-sounding disc, and an excellent overview of his chart career. However, if you're going to try and reverse-engineer the 45 edit (as I do below), you'll discover that All The Best runs a few seconds short; you'll need to start with the version running 3:40 on Endless Flight (Chrysalis 41125), which I don't have. The LP version turns up on three different UK multi-artist compilations on Disky Records, but all are compressed, have a shrill EQ, and run shorter than All The Best.
Still, this is a worthy exercise. Here are editing instructions, including the out-of-sequence edits, using All The Best as the source:
Segment 1
168 beats long
Begins and ends on a downbeat
Extends from 0:00.0 to 1:45.3 of the LP version and the 45 edit
Segment 2
32 beats long
Begins and ends on a downbeat
Extends from 1:45.3 to 2:04.7 of the 45 edit
Extends from 2:29.9 to 2:49.4 of the LP version
Segment 3
24 beats long
Begins and ends on a downbeat
Extends from 2:04.7 to 2:19.6 of the 45 edit
Extends from 1:55.1 to 2:10.0 of the LP version
Segment 4
Begins on a downbeat
Extends from 2:19.6 to 2:48.8 (end) of the 45 edit
Extends from 3:09.3 to 3:38.4 (end) of the LP version
Your mixdown will run 2:47 (too short if you use All The Best as your source), with edits at 1:45.3, 2:04.7 and 2:19.6. The problem edit is at 1:45.3, between segments 1 and 2. The true 45 comes in just a little too late with the "dancin'" from segment 2. It's not drastic, and I never noticed it until now.
The 45 edit first appeared on CD on Warner Special Products/Silver Eagle's 2-CD Dancin' The Night Away (1988), where it runs 2:50. This version matches the true 45, and includes the imperfect edit at 1:45. The same analog transfer is used for:- Warner Special Products/Heartland's 2-CD Feel Good Rock (1989; differently EQ'd digital clone)
- Priority's Mega-Hits Dance Classics Vol. 3 (1989)
- Warner Special Products' 2-CD Entertainment Weekly Presents The Disco Collection(1993)
Bill Inglot redid the edits for Rhino's Billboard Top Hits 1977 (1991), and did a better job with the 1:45 edit than the original engineer at WB in 1976. The song sounds great here. These discs use the same analog transfer as Billboard:- Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 17 1977 Take Two (original release, 1991; differently-EQ'd digital clone, possibly with noise reduction that rolls off the high-end tape hiss - avoid)
- Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 17 1977 Take Two (RE-1 reissue, 1991?; digitally exactly 1.9 dB louder than original release of this disc, also possibly has NR that rolls off the high-end tape hiss - avoid)
- Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 45 '70s Dance Party 1976-1977 (1997; differently-EQ'd digital clone, no NR, tape hiss fully intact)
- Razor & Tie's 2-CD Suddenly '70s (1997)
- Time-Life's 2-CD Seventies Music Explosion Vol. 3 Miracles (2005; digitally identical to '70s Dance Party)
I recommend:
For the LP version, go with Chrysalis's All The Best (1993), although I don't have Endless Flight.
For the 45 edit, go with Rhino's Billboard Top Hits 1977 (1991), and enjoy the slightly-tidied edit at 1:45.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 08 September 2015 at 7:11am
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eriejwg
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A long time ago, I downloaded the song from the Rhino
version of "Endless Flight", which is the 45 version and
has the glitchy splice, if I'm hearing it correctly.
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chendagam
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EdisonLite wrote:
Speaking of spliced tapes and razor blades (as
Aaron did), this brings up another point - All single versions that contain
edits are one generation removed from the album versions, in terms of
quality and tape hiss. So for all the CD choices we have these days for
a song, it may be better to go with a newly edited version (if it TRULY
matches the original 45 edit) because if the newly made edit was done
digitally, it will be one generation better than using the tape of the actual
single edit (and therefore, may be less hissy.) Just food for thought.
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Just curious if anyone has actually done this or know someone that
worked for a record co. and did this for a living. As a kid this was my
dream job. How did they edit exclusive versions (like Michael Jackson's
"Thriller")?
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: "You Make Me Feel Like Dancing"
