Top 40 Music on Compact Disc: Pointer Sisters

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Topic: Pointer Sisters - "Dare Me"

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crapfromthepast
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Posted: 26 September 2007 at 5:42pm \| IP Logged

Much to my surprise, the 45 can't be recreated from the LP version.

I have the promo 45, with printed and actual times of 3:41 on both sides. I have the LP version (or what I think is the LP version) on Nipper's Greatest Hits/The 80's (RCA 9970-2-R, 1990).

The 45 appears to run about 0.8% slower at 108.9 BPM, compared to 109.7 BPM for the LP version.

It's difficult to hear, but I think they may be ever-so-slightly different mixes. On the LP version, over the intro, I hear a shaky percussion instrument on the off-beats very clearly in the left channel, opposite the hi-hat, which is on the right. On the 45, both the hi-hat and the off-beat shaky thing are together on the right channel.

Aside from this admittedly minor mix detail, the two versions sound pretty much the same until about 2:47 of the LP version. I thought I could do a simple edit to remove the instrumental breakdown near the end of the song, but it doesn't work. The vocal ad-libs after the expected edit point are different, and the end portion of the LP version fades a good 20 seconds before the 45 does.

Bottom line - can't recreate the 45 from the LP version. I suppose I'll have to look for the Fire - Very Best Of CD for the 45 version...

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Brian W.
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Posted: 28 September 2007 at 4:15am \| IP Logged

crapfromthepast wrote:

I suppose I'll have to look for the Fire - Very Best Of CD for the 45 version...

Is that the only CD it appears on? A 3:41 version is listed on several CDs in the database.

crapfromthepast
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Posted: 28 September 2007 at 3:30pm \| IP Logged

I have an old version of the book...

Todd Ireland
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Posted: 29 September 2007 at 9:28am \| IP Logged

Pat, I'm somewhat confused by the most recent updates regarding "Dare Me" in the database. It states: (dj copies of this 45 ran (3:41) and (4:05); commercial copies were all (3:41)), yet all CD appearances running 3:41 contain the comment: (short 45 version). So does this mean there are commercial 45 pressings that contain the long version? Or should the comment next to the 3:41 CD appearances really state: (45 version)?

Edited by Todd Ireland on 29 September 2007 at 9:29am

jimct
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Posted: 29 September 2007 at 10:49am \| IP Logged

Todd, my friend, I actually think that Pat already has it exactly right. A side note here is that there were two different promo 45s issued for this, and not simply a "short/long" version for the same promo 45. My (4:05) promo 45 boldly states "Hot New Remix", on both sides. And while, to my knowledge, this (4:05) version has only appeared as a promo 45, to me it DOES still qualify as a "45 version". I agree with the fact that Pat currently describes all database CDs that contain a (3:41) length as the "short 45 version". It IS obviously shorter than the second, (4:05) promo 45 that was also issued in 1985. Now, if Pat would've noted "short COMMERCIAL 45 version" for the (3:41) CDs, I could then agree with you; but he hasn't. Finally, while I happened to have the listed (4:05) "Hot New Remix" promo 45 pulled out, I went ahead and timed it. It has an actual time of (4:12).

Edited by jimct on 29 September 2007 at 11:00am

Brian W.
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Posted: 29 September 2007 at 2:28pm \| IP Logged

jimct wrote:

Now, if Pat would've noted "short COMMERCIAL 45 version" for the (3:41) CDs, I could then agree with you; but he hasn't.

But Pat has never used "45 version" to indicate anything but a commercial 45.

The latest update says in the header that all commercial copies ran 3:41, but then lists them as "short 45 version" next to each song, which would imply there is a long commercial 45 out there somewhere. It needs clarification... it's confusing.

Edited by Brian W. on 29 September 2007 at 2:30pm

aaronk
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Posted: 29 September 2007 at 2:52pm \| IP Logged

jimct wrote:

My (4:05) promo 45 boldly states "Hot New Remix", on both sides.

I wonder if this remix is a short version of the "Extended Mix" from the 12" vinyl and Greatest Hits CD. RCA did that with a few Hall & Oates singles around the same time period.

Todd Ireland
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Posted: 01 October 2007 at 9:55pm \| IP Logged

Sorry, I'm still not fully clear on things here... Based on Jim's report, we know that promo 45 copies of "Dare Me" running 4:05 consist of a remix. But what about the promo 45 running 3:41? Is it a remix too, or is it identical to the commercial 45? If it's a remix, then the database comments are accurate. But if the 3:41 promo 45 is identical to the commercial 45, then I believe a simple (45 version) comment suffices here. Isn't this how Pat has always handled cases where a promo and commercial 45 are identical? I'm pretty certain he makes specific comments about a DJ edit only when it differs in some way from the commercial 45.

At any rate, I might suggest perhaps modifying the headlining comment for "Dare Me" to help add further clarification, such as:

(some dj copies of this 45 run (3:41), while other dj copies consist of a remix running (4:12) not (4:05) as stated on the record label; commercial copies all run (3:41))

jimct
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Posted: 01 October 2007 at 11:18pm \| IP Logged

Todd, I like that wording. The (3:41) commercial and promo 45s are the same. The remix was put out a month or so after the first promo 45. The song wasn't racing up the charts as quickly as many other of their early 80s 45s, and the label was looking to "provide another option/energize" the song's move up the charts.

Todd Ireland
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Posted: 02 October 2007 at 10:00am \| IP Logged

Thanks for the clarification, Jim. So if the short DJ 45 edit is the same as the commercial 45, then the comment for all CD entries running 3:41 in the database should probably be modified to state: (commercial 45 and short DJ 45 edit). Currently, the comment for these 3:41 CD appearances only state: (short DJ 45 edit), which to me implies there's a commercial 45 version still out there not currently available on CD. I suspect some may think I'm being overly picky about the database wording, but I'm just trying to help spare other database readers from the same confusion I'm having.

aaronk
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Posted: 18 May 2008 at 1:04am \| IP Logged

I'm highly suspicious that the "Hot New Remix" might be the LP version and could have been a record company gimmick to conjure up some airplay. I just compared this promo 45 version to the copy on my TM Century GoldDisc, and they are the same. The reason I suspect it's the LP version is because this particular GoldDisc is one of the really old ones, and all the rest of the tracks are LP versions dubbed from other CDs. Their copy clearly isn't from vinyl, so either they obtained a tape source for this "remix" (unlikely) or they just faded the LP early (more likely).

Does anyone have the actual LP version that they can send to me for comparison purposes?

By the way, some CDs in the database still read "short dj 45 version" when it should just read "45 version."

Edited by aaronk on 18 May 2008 at 8:49am

aaronk
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Posted: 18 May 2008 at 10:33pm \| IP Logged

Thanks to my friend, BudB, I just compared the LP version on Nipper's Greatest Hits: The 80s with the "Hot New Remix" on the promo 45. My suspicions are mostly correct. This isn't actually a "remix." It's just a very slightly altered LP version.

The technical specs

The promo 45 "remix" and the LP version match exactly up the (3:28) mark. At that point, (0:08) was removed from the LP version in comparison to the "remix." Also, the two versions differ for about (0:06) just before the fade out, where there is some different ad libbing.

For the editors, this version CAN be created by using what's available on CD; you'll just have to use the 12" version from (3:47) to the end. Using the LP version to start, remove the section from (3:28.5) to (3:37.3), which is on the downbeat. At (3:47), switch sources to the 12" version where the vocals are exactly the same (roughly at 5:08). Using about 25 seconds of the 12" version for the ending, create the fade from (3:58) to (4:12).

As a side note, the 12" version is the same mix as the LP version; it's just longer and has a different intro. At the place where the different ad libbing occurs between the promo 45 and LP version, you can hear the tape splices on the LP version where they edited in an earlier section of the 12" version for (0:06).

eriejwg
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Posted: 19 May 2008 at 7:16am \| IP Logged

Here's another question, and my mind is fuzzy on what the Top 40 station I worked at in 1985 did, but did stations stay with the original 3:41 version, or switch to the s0-called "hot new remix" ??

Todd Ireland
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Posted: 19 May 2008 at 7:13pm \| IP Logged

Thanks for your extensive detective work on this, Aaron! Fortunately, the 45 version is easy to find on CD.

I was living near Dayton, Ohio, at the time "Dare Me" was a hit. I'm pretty sure the local Adult Contemporary stations played the 3:41 version. I believe Z-93, our Top 40 station, briefly played the so-called "remix", though admittedly my memory is hazy with this.

Edited by Todd Ireland on 19 May 2008 at 7:19pm

NightAire
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Posted: 22 April 2023 at 12:52am \| IP Logged

I remember at least one of the two local top 40s in Tulsa for sure playing the "remix" (KELI-AM/FM) but I can't speak for KAYI-FM.

The commercial 45 mix immediately sounded wrong: instruments in the wrong place, different spreads, different levels. It wasn't until I switched to the LP version that I thought, "aha! THAT'S how I remember it sounding on the radio."

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