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Underground Dub
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So, deciphering which CD single releases were meant as equivalents to cassette/45 singles (instead of 12"/CS Maxi-Singles) was always fun, especially prior to 1995.
While Warner Bros. were great about making clear which were which - often producing both! - other labels were decidedly more vague. For these, I've relied on Billboard's Hot 100 which has often left me confused...
One example: The Hot 100 charts from early 1993 give Whitney Houston's "I Will Always Love You" an (X) indicator, meaning Billboard considered the CD release a Maxi-Single.
The similarly manufactured "Love Shoulda Brought You Home" by Toni Braxton on the same chart instead has a (D) indicator, meaning they considered it a CD Single.
How would they have come to this conclusion? Would this information have been provided by the label to Billboard? Were there pricing discrepancies that affected how Billboard perceived them?
Both were issued in identical packaging and run approximately the same length with each including a third track not found on their respective cassette equivalents.
The only other theory I could stir up was "Shoulda"'s three tracks are all versions of the A-Side, while "Always" contains three different songs. I don't think that would have mattered, but...did it?
I'd love to read any answers/insights/theories/commiserations.
Edited by Underground Dub on 18 June 2021 at 1:36pm
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thecdguy
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| Posted: 18 June 2021 at 2:34pm | IP Logged
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I was always confused about this, too. I was under the
impression that a "Maxi-Single" was multiple versions of
the same song with another song occasionally thrown in.
But I think someone else told me back in the 90's that
any single with more than two songs is a Maxi-Single,
regardless of if it's multiple versions of the same song
or different songs. So I'm also not sure what the deal
was with them.
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AdvprosD
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Would any of this information be applied to an "EP?" I think I often saw the term Maxi-Single and EP interchanged a lot.
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mjb50
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On Discogs, many years ago, we had these kind of discussions after it started becoming evident that we all had different impressions of what these terms mean, and that there was no rhyme or reason to what gets called a 12", a Single, a Maxi-Single, an EP, or a Mini-Album/Mini-LP. Even 'album' is hard to nail down a strict definition for.
If you look at charts, catalog numbers & price codes, official websites/discographies, text on the releases themselves, press kits... none of it is consistent. It's all just marketing. The same track selection will be called different things depending on where & when it was released, or who was saying it. So you may think you have some kind of rule worked out based on duration, content, or physical configuration, but then on Discogs you can look at gobs of releases, way more than most collectors have ever had physical access to, and you find there are counterexamples, tons of 'em.
This led to the creation of the infamous guideline 6.10, requiring many of those 'format tags' to have to be justified by text on the release... so if it calls itself Maxi something, then it's OK to use the Maxi-Single tag ... or the tag can be justified by the exact item being mentioned in a chart or official publication as such, arbitrary as that ultimately is.
As for the OP's question, I would assume either Billboard had their own definition, or they just relied on what they were told by the record companies.
Edited by mjb50 on 19 June 2021 at 2:10am
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torcan
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| Posted: 19 June 2021 at 9:42pm | IP Logged
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mjb50 wrote:
As for the OP's question, I would assume either
Billboard had their own definition, or they just
relied on what they were told by the record companies.
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I'd love to know how Billboard got their info. For
followers of the charts during the '90s, you'll notice
that a lot of their notations weren't always correct -
especially when it came to what was on a vinyl 45 and
what wasn't. There were several songs marked with a
(V) that doesn't actually exist...and there were quite
a few with no (V) where one does exist. I'm sure the
same is true with the other formats as well.
Maybe the record company changed their mind and never
notified Billboard? As a collector, the '90s were
definitely confusing with all the possible
combinations of singles formats.
Which brings me to my next querie: did labels really
make any profit releasing some songs on SIX formats?
It just doesn't make sense to me that so many would be
needed for ONE hit single.
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thecdguy
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| Posted: 26 June 2021 at 4:31am | IP Logged
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Quote:
There were several songs marked with a
(V) that doesn't actually exist...and there were quite
a few with no (V) where one does exist. I'm sure the
same is true with the other formats as well. |
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Probably the best example of that is the "Who Said I Would" Live Version by Phil Collins which Billboard listed with a (C) for its supposed availability
on Cassette Single. To date, I don't think anyone anywhere has ever actually seen a copy of it although it was issued on a Promo CD Single.
Quote:
Which brings me to my next querie: did labels really
make any profit releasing some songs on SIX formats?
It just doesn't make sense to me that so many would be
needed for ONE hit single. |
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I don't know about how they profited from it, but I would guess the multi-format thing happened at least in part because the labels figured there were
vinyl buyers, cassette buyers and CD buyers. I'll assume each configuration was targeted for specific buyers. I myself was a big buyer of Cassette
Singles from the late 80's to the mid-90's, and obviously I was slow to get on board with CD Singles as were many other people. From what I understand,
Cassette Singles were outselling Vinyl 45's by the early 90's, which might explain why some songs were available only in that format and not others. By
the late 90's it seemed to pretty much be CD Singles and not much else, as I noticed I was barely seeing Cassette Singles in stores anymore and Vinyl
had also seemed to disappear a few years earlier.
So in short, I'd guess that at the beginning of the decade, there was a market for the various formats because not everyone had made the transition from
Vinyl/Cassette to CD. By the end of it, it was obvious that the CD Single was the biggest seller, so much so to the point that labels were either
putting out limited pressings of them or in some cases none at all because of concern about them cannibalizing album sales.
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AndrewChouffi
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| Posted: 26 June 2021 at 5:53am | IP Logged
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thecdguy wrote:
Probably the best example of that is
the "Who Said I Would" Live Version by Phil Collins
which Billboard listed with a (C) for its supposed
availability on Cassette Single. To date, I don't
think anyone anywhere has ever actually seen a copy of
it although it was issued on a Promo CD Single.
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I think the two most egregious all-time Billboard
Chart Anomalies are:
1) "Who Said I Would" charting at a time when
Billboard had a strict policy against non-commercial
singles/LP cuts being able to chart. I suspect it
charted based on Atlantic telling them it was a
commercial single without Billboard checking if there
were any vinyl, cassette or CD singles in any
stores...
2) Not letting "Into The Groove" chart. It WAS
released commercially on the flip of the "Angel" 12".
They suspiciously let it chart on the 'Hot Black
Singles' chart which had the exact same charting rules
at that time. It certainly was a large airplay hit,
plus it propelled the "Angel" 12" to Gold (Million
Seller) status at a time when her 12" singles were
selling only moderately.
People out there - please add your "favorite"
anomalies or correct me if any errors on my two
choices!
Andy
Edited by AndrewChouffi on 26 June 2021 at 5:55am
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thecdguy
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Quote:
2) Not letting "Into The Groove" chart. It WAS
released commercially on the flip of the "Angel" 12".
They suspiciously let it chart on the 'Hot Black
Singles' chart which had the exact same charting rules
at that time. It certainly was a large airplay hit,
plus it propelled the "Angel" 12" to Gold (Million
Seller) status at a time when her 12" singles were
selling only moderately. |
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I always wondered why they didn't put ITG on the chart since it was still technically released on a commercial single. I don't know if it would have made
much of a difference as far as chart positions, though. I think in 1985, Billboard was still listing two-sided hits together as one listing, which
probably would have meant that it would have appeared on the chart as "Angel/Into The Groove". It had alot of airplay in my area as well, but does anyone
know how (or if?) it performed on the Airplay Chart? I ask because I think Bon Jovi's "Never Say Goodbye" was the first song to reach the Top 40 on the
Airplay chart a few years after ITG without being commercially released as a single. So obviously, "Into The Groove" must have peaked below #40 in
Airplay if that's true about the Bon Jovi song. That's why I sometimes wonder if a commercial single would have propelled it very high on the chart, if
it didn't have enough points to make the Airplay chart.
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AndrewChouffi
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| Posted: 27 June 2021 at 12:48pm | IP Logged
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Well, Dan, I don't know its peak on
Billboard's Airplay chart because I'm on
the road, but it did get to #6 on R&R's
CHR Airplay chart.
Andy
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Paul Haney
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| Posted: 28 June 2021 at 3:37am | IP Logged
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Dan, because it didn't qualify for the Hot 100, Billboard
didn't even allow "Into The Groove" on to their Top 40
Airplay chart at the time. If they had, it surely
would've charted fairly high. By the time that Bon Jovi
song came along, they had obviously changed their policy.
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thecdguy
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Thanks Paul, I didn't know that it was ineligible for the Airplay chart as well. But what exactly were Billboard's rules for being able to chart on the
Hot 100 at the time? Wasn't their policy that a song had to be commercially available in some configuration as a single? If so, ITG would've fit the
bill since it was on a commercially available 12" Single, and by then at least a few other songs had charted with only being available as a 12" single.
Is it because it was on the B-Side of the single that made it ineligible? Also, why would it be able to make the R&B chart if it had the same rules as
the Hot 100?
I also checked Wikipedia about the song. Basically it said that it wasn't released as a single because the label didn't want another movie song
competing with a song ("Angel") from her then-current album the way "Material Girl" and "Crazy For You" did a few months previous. (Considering that the
songs peaked at #2 and #1 respectively and were in the Top 10 simultaneously, I can't imagine why that would've been a cause for concern). I think that
was a big mistake on their part, as Madonna was so hot at the time that she probably would've been able to pull off having another song from her album
and another movie song in the Top 10 simultaneously.
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AndrewChouffi
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| Posted: 28 June 2021 at 6:54am | IP Logged
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To Paul:
When was the first Hot 100 Airplay compiled? My
classic Top Pop 1955-2002 states it was published
starting 10/20/84 but I was wondering if Billboard had
been compiling it prior to that date for internal use.
Also, were there any other airplay-only type charts
(other than AC & Hot 100 Airplay) that Billboard had
in the 70s & 80s?
Andy
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Paul Haney
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Billboard wasn't allowing 12-inch only singles on the Hot 100 at the time (though there may have been some exceptions,
especially in the late 1970s and early 1980s). However, they were allowed on the R&B chart. Add to the fact that Sire
records may not have wanted Into The Groove to compete with Angel and I can see why they didn't allow Into The Groove onto
the Hot 100 (though I think they probably should have). A similar situation occurred in 1984 with "Tell Me I'm Not
Dreamin'" by Jermaine & Michael Jackson. [EDIT] - An instrumental version of the song appeared as the B-side of the 45 of
"Dynamite", but by that time the Top 40 airplay on the vocal version was waning. "Dreamin'" did hit #6 on R&R's CHR chart.
Yes, Billboard started publishing the Hot 100 component (sales & airplay) charts on 10/20/84. Since the Hot 100 was always
some combination of sales & airplay, we can assume that those component charts were "in-house" only for several years prior
to October 1984. But, because they were never published, we'll never get to see them (sigh).
Edited by Paul Haney on 30 June 2021 at 3:40am
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AndrewChouffi
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Thanks for the information Paul; I was hoping Record
Research had an extra few months of unpublished
charts...
Could you double-check something for me? I thought
that "Dynamite" included only the instrumental version
of "Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin'" on the flip. It was
labeled that way on the picture sleeve. I know that it
was labeled on earlier Record Research Top Pop
books, but it no longer is. I only own the promo 7' so
I can't check.
Andy
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thecdguy
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I just checked Discogs, and all the vinyl 45 listings for
the commercial US 45 of "Dynamite" list the Instrumental
Version of "Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin'" as the B-Side.
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Underground Dub
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"Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin' (Too Good To Be True)" was used as a B-side three times during 1984.
The vocal version was issued as the B-side of Jermaine Jackson's single "Do What You Do" and "Take Good Care Of My Heart (duet with Whitney Houston)", both around October of 1984.
The instrumental version preceded both, issued as the B-side of Jermaine Jackson's single "Dynamite" around July of 1984.
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mjb50
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thecdguy wrote:
| But what exactly were Billboard's rules for being able to chart on the Hot 100 at the time? Wasn't their policy that a song had to be commercially available in some configuration as a single? If so, ITG would've fit the bill since it was on a commercially available 12" Single, and by then at least a few other songs had charted with only being available as a 12" single. Is it because it was on the B-Side of the single that made it ineligible? Also, why would it be able to make the R&B chart if it had the same rules as the Hot 100? |
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The Billboard How We Track The Hits supplement is circa 1987 and kinda explains the policy but doesn't answer the question. Any type of single (7", 12", CS or CMS, at the time) was eligible, although there were also minimum airplay requirements. I'm as mystified as you.
Edited by mjb50 on 30 June 2021 at 2:01am
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Paul Haney
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I forgot that the "Dynamite" B-side was an instrumental version of "Tell Me...". Thanks for the reminder(s)! I edited my
previous post accordingly.
There are other examples like this over the years. That's why I felt it was important to get the Radio & Records book
done a few years ago.
Edited by Paul Haney on 30 June 2021 at 3:41am
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Topic: Billboard: CD Singles vs. Maxi-Singles ?
