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aaronk
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| Posted: 24 September 2007 at 8:05am | IP Logged
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All but one CD in the database list King Harvest's "Dancing In The Moonlight" as neither or mastered from vinyl. The one CD that does not have a notation is Time Life's Singers And Songwriters: Mid '70s. Is it safe to assume that this disc has the song in stereo from a tape source, or is this another "mastered from vinyl" copy?
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 24 September 2007 at 6:58pm | IP Logged
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Funny you mention it Aaron, never thought to check the database on this one. Always thought I carried the 45 version. So, if neither the 45 or LP version is indicated, is that because it's mono on all those sources?
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 24 September 2007 at 10:07pm | IP Logged
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My recollection is that the 45 IS mono, so that's not what prevents those recordings from being the 45 version.
I know one of the reasons that most of those versions aren't either the 45 or LP version is that the lead vocal is missing an "Everybody" near the end of the song. Also, the reverb level on the vocals is different.
Edited by EdisonLite on 24 September 2007 at 10:08pm
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aaronk
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| Posted: 25 September 2007 at 12:00am | IP Logged
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EdisonLite is exactly right. The 45 is mono, but the mono versions on CD have added reverb on the vocals and the lead guitar. Also, at 2:15 the lead vocal is almost completely removed from the mix, which is why the word "everbody" cannot be heard clearly. It's there, but just barely.
Now, thanks to Jim, I was able to hear the stereo version from one of the Collectibles CDs. While the database states "mastered from vinyl," I honestly do not hear any vinyl noise at all & no clicks and pops at all. Another reason I don't think it's vinyl is because on the fadeout, the tape hiss remains constant while the song is fading out. Even on the quietest part of the fadeout, I still cannot hear any vinyl groove noise---just the hiss.
What I do hear is a very bad tape source. It sounds like it very well could be a fifth or sixth generation dub (maybe worse); there are lots of tape dropouts, especially on the intro. And of course, there's also several layers of tape hiss.
Does anyone know if this is the same source used on the Time Life compilation, or are we getting a better generation source?
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 25 September 2007 at 8:17am | IP Logged
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Napster has a 1 track Dancing In The Moonlight available from Darbo Music LLC. Sounds like it may be the same source as the Collectibiles file, everybody is clearly heard at 2:15, with much tape hiss on the fade and the beginning has the same problem.
Edited by eriejwg on 25 September 2007 at 8:18am
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 25 September 2007 at 8:47am | IP Logged
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MMathews and I were talking about the Collectables CD a month or two ago and both of us concluded that it was not from a vinyl source and that the listing in Pat's database is wrong.
And on the flip side of that situation, there are a number of entries in the database that do not indicated "mastered from vinyl" that actually are. I usually don't bring this issue up, because it sometimes is debatable, and other times they use vinyl cleaning software, which makes it even more debatable. But personally, I'd rather see the comment "mastered from vinyl" in all cases where it is.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 25 September 2007 at 10:59am | IP Logged
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I agree. I think the comment "poor source tape" would probably be more accurate for "Dancing In The Moonlight." And you're right that it can be difficult to determine a vinyl source if they used clean-up techniques to remove the vinyl artifacts. There are three things that I listen for when trying to determine if the source is vinyl:
1) clicks & pops
2) vinyl surface noise & turntable rumble
3) groove distortion
Clicks and pops can generally be removed without affecting the audio in any way. Surface noise can usually be reduced without any noticeable change in audio quality; however, you would typically still hear some remnants of it on a quiet fade out (unless of course the audio was faded early, which is not the case on "Dancing...").
Groove distortion cannot be removed. This is caused when the record is worn or when the needle is not tracking properly in the groove. If none of the above are present, I don't think a "mastered from vinyl" comment is warranted. In the case of "Dancing In The Moonlight," I do not hear groove distortion, surface noise, or clicks/pops. It has to be a tape source, or else the mastering engineer did such a great vinyl clean up that he has me fooled.
Perhaps we can start another thread that lists songs on CD that we can say for sure are mastered from vinyl.
Also, I'm still curious to know about that Time Life disc!
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 25 September 2007 at 3:20pm | IP Logged
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Aaron, I agree with all your points about how to identify a vinyl source and also agree it would be great to start a thread for "mastered from vinyl" sources. I think it would be useful info for the database (and its users) if it indicated which entries are mastered from vinyl.
I think this King Harvest case is probably the only example of where the database indicates something is mastered from vinyl, when it's not. I think the more common error (or lack of data) in the database is for the vinyl sources that are not indicated at all.
So I propose we start a thread, as Aaron suggests, where us techie types who pay alot of attention to this matter can indicate which entries are mastered from vinyl -- assuming Pat even likes the idea and would want to update the database with this data. (Obviously, Pat, I know you'd have to agree with our assessment, so maybe we could pinpoint certain points in the song that make it a giveaway that it's from vinyl. Or maybe we could get a concensus vote.) Pat (and the others here), do you feel this info would be useful for the database?
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davidclark
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| Posted: 25 September 2007 at 7:29pm | IP Logged
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i like this idea and I would participate.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 25 September 2007 at 11:26pm | IP Logged
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I'll start the thread! I already have one to list...
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Pat Downey
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| Posted: 26 September 2007 at 8:20am | IP Logged
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The reason for my comments of "mastered from vinyl" for all versions of this song come from my understanding obtained from industry sources that there is no master tape available. If anyone has information to the contrary please let us know. I guess it is an oversight that I did not add this comment to the Time-Life cd "Singers And Songwriters: Mid 70's".
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The Hits Man
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| Posted: 26 September 2007 at 8:30pm | IP Logged
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Does anyone know what source Bill Inglot used for the version found on Have a Nice Day: Super Hits Of the 70s?
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 02 November 2008 at 1:40pm | IP Logged
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Had a chance to sample the Have A Nice Day... version...it's a neither.
If you take the file from the parent Dancing In The Moonlight, run some slight hiss reduction, speed it up a tad and fade it by 2:53-2:54, it matches the 45, only in stereo. That's what I just did.
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EdisonLite
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I'm not sure what you mean by "parent Dancing in the Moonlight", but if you mean the original LP, or the CD on Collectables, then I believe your statement is correct. The "Have a Nice Day" version has extra reverb and is also missing an "everybody" lead vocal in the latter part of the song.
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eriejwg
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Gordon:
I guess what I mean to say was parent LP. On Napster, it's track 10 from Dancing In The Moonlight. The 'everybody' is clearly heard at 2:15.
I'll send you a file for observation...
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Todd Ireland
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The actual commercial 45 run time of King Harvest's "Dancing in the Moonlight" is 2:56. (Thanks once again to Jim for the timing info. The printed record label time is 2:57.) I bring this up because the three database CDs that do not contain a "neither the 45 nor LP version" comment run from 2:51-2:57.
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crapfromthepast
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Stereo mix (2:56, plus or minus a second)
Mark M supplied the following details, since he had to become a King Harvest expert when Eric Records licensed the song:
At the time Eric licensed the song in 2010, Musidisc in Paris (where this was recorded) was still in business but they had been purchased by Universal. Sometime in the last few years, the rights reverted to the band and now the song is licensed by their attorney. Musidisc in 1972 provided one master tape to Perception Records in the US and that was a copy of the stereo LP master.
Mark sent me a copy of the raw file that Musidisc-Universal sent to him back then, and Aaron K sent me a dub from the Collectables CD. I can confirm that one is a digital clone of the other. They sound virtually identical to my ears, even down to the fade at the end. In my null test, they cancel almost exactly, with the same levels and same EQ. But the null test leaves behind some odd static-y artifacts around -24 dB, which tells me that one of the two files has some small noise reduction applied. It's a very small amount, though, and I couldn't tell which file has it - I didn't hear any NR artifacts with my ears, even with a significant level boost on the fade. Edit: see post below
Eric's Hard To Find 45s On CD Vol. 12 (2010) is a digital clone of the Musidisc-Universal file, but with a pretty large amount of noise reduction applied. This is quite audible on the fade.
Note that all of the above are from a source tape, not from vinyl.
Aaron sent me a needledrop of the vinyl LP. Compared to the digital versions, the vinyl LP runs 1.3% faster, has its left and right channels swapped, and has the same dropouts on the intro (but in the opposite channel due to the left/right channel swap). The two-track mixdown tape even back in 1972 was pretty beat up. Plus, the vinyl LP sounds extremely muffled, compared to all the digital versions listed above - not good, and not really worth hunting down on vinyl.
For my own libary, I'm going with the digital version, at the speed of the digital version, and with the left/right orientation of the digital version.
Mono mix (2:56, plus or minus a second)
It's a fold-down of the stereo mix, same fade points and all. Mark confirmed that Perception folded down the LP version exactly as-is and released the 45 in mono. The vinyl 45 runs about 0.2% faster than the digital version on the Collectables and Eric CDs, which is an insignificant difference.
Previously unreleased mono mix (2:49)
Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 17 (1993) uses a mono mix that was never released in the US, as far as I can tell. This mix buries the lead vocal at 2:15, so that the word "everybody" is barely audible. The same analog transfer is used on:- Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 31 AM Top Twenty (1993)
- Rhino's Have A Nice Night (1998)
All of the above use a tape source, and are not from vinyl. The intro on this version is much cleaner than the digital versions listed above, and lacks most of the dropouts that the digital versions have. I suspect that all the 2:49 mono versions are based on the mastering for Have A Nice Day Vol. 17, but can't verify.
One more stereo version
The stereo version on Time-Life's 2-CD Singers And Songwriters Vol. 8 Mid-'70s (2001) is a clever edit that fixes some of the dropouts on the intro. The first 15 seconds are grafted on from Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 17 (1993). After 0:15, Singers And Songwriters uses the same analog transfer as the digital versions above. The transition point is on the first word "we". Clever!
But unfortunately, the mixes are different. On Have A Nice Day Vol. 17, the shaky instrument comes in too early. Based on this, I'd vote that Singers And Songwriters Vol. 8 Mid-'70s is also a "neither the 45 nor LP version".
Edited by crapfromthepast on 22 September 2017 at 1:27pm
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aaronk
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crapfromthepast wrote:
| Aaron sent me a needledrop of the vinyl LP. Compared to the digital versions, the vinyl LP runs 1.3% faster, has its left and right channels swapped, and has the same dropouts on the intro (but in the opposite channel due to the left/right channel swap). The two-track mixdown tape even back in 1972 was pretty beat up. Plus, the vinyl LP sounds extremely muffled, compared to all the digital versions listed above - not good, and not really worth hunting down on vinyl. |
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In an earlier post, I mentioned that the Collectibles CD (and therefore Universal digital master) sounded like it was a high generation tape. If you take the vinyl LP and give it a big treble boost, it basically sounds like the Collectables CD. So, yeah, Ron is right that it's not worth hunting down the vinyl if you're searching for a better source. I will, however, say that I prefer an EQ that is somewhere in the between the LP and CD. The CD is too harsh and bright IMO, and the treble boost really makes that tape hiss stand out.
Edited by aaronk on 20 September 2017 at 6:39am
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Ringmaster_D
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aaronk wrote:
crapfromthepast wrote:
Aaron sent me
a needledrop of the vinyl LP. Compared to the digital
versions, the vinyl LP runs 1.3% faster, has its left
and right channels swapped, and has the same dropouts
on the intro (but in the opposite channel due to the
left/right channel swap). The two-track mixdown tape
even back in 1972 was pretty beat up. Plus, the vinyl
LP sounds extremely muffled, compared to all the
digital versions listed above - not good, and not
really worth hunting down on vinyl. |
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In an earlier post, I mentioned that the Collectibles
CD (and therefore Universal digital master) sounded
like it was a high generation tape. If you take the
vinyl LP and give it a big treble boost, it basically
sounds like the Collectables CD. So, yeah, Ron is
right that it's not worth hunting down the vinyl if
you're searching for a better source. I will,
however, say that I prefer an EQ that is somewhere in
the between the LP and CD. The CD is too harsh and
bright IMO, and the treble boost really makes that
tape hiss stand out. |
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Hey Aaron, Any suggested EQ settings to make the
Collectibles CD less harsh?
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anthology123
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I read an interview years ago (before 2000) regarding the Rhino Have A Nice
Day comps, and there was particular attention to this song. I am not certain if
the interview was with Bill or not. It mentioned they had a hard time tracking
down the master tape for this song, it mentions the owner of the master being
in France at the time, and could not be bothered to hunt down the original
master tape for them. I don't remember many of the details, it may have been
in an issue of Goldmine.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: King Harvest - Dancing In The Moonlight
