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jimct
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| Posted: 31 January 2007 at 1:51pm | IP Logged
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Pat, I have two different promo 45s for this. The first one you've already noted, the listed (4:20), actual (3:13), deadwax (DR41553-3) promo. My second promo has a listed time of (3:06), but an actual time of (4:28), deadwax (DR41553-1). My two listed and actual (4:26) stock 45s have deadwaxes of (DR41553) and (DR41553-XX), neither of which matches my (4:28) promo's deadwax, which is why THAT promo can legitimately run (:02) longer than my 2 commercial copies.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 31 January 2007 at 9:02pm | IP Logged
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Jim:
I'm intrigued by the last part of your post when you say that your 4:28 promo 45 copy of "Nights in White Satin" can legitimately run :02 longer than your two commercial 45 copies due to the different deadwax numbers. By this, do you mean that the 4:28 promo version was produced and mastered at a different time than the commercial 45, thus explaining the slight discrepencies in run times? I was wondering if you wouldn't mind elaborating on this a little bit more because I've often wondered why a song's respective run times on a commercial 45 and promo 45 sometimes differ by a second or two.
Edited by Todd Ireland on 31 January 2007 at 9:03pm
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jimct
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| Posted: 01 February 2007 at 12:25am | IP Logged
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Yes, Todd, that was my basic point. I've never been inside 45 pressing plants or anything, but in comparing SO many stock & promo 45 versions of the same song, as I explained to Pat recently in a previous post somewhere, I'm noticing that, at least 1/3 of the time, definitive (:01) and (:02) second time differences, between the mono and stereo promo versions, that I have not usually been reporting to the Board. All contain different deadwax info. Different deadwax doesn't ALWAYS mean different lengths, believe me. I think each "Master" pressing could "stamp out" several thousand 45s, before requiring replacement (I was told the FIRST few hundred presses of a "new run" were usually promos, as the quality of the press was highest at first, and then slowly diminished during the "run.") Labels weren't as concerned about "audiophile quality" for their commercial 45 pressings (sorry, Ed!) Then, a new "master pressing" MAY contain a slight deadwax variation. Or, very often, labels had 45s pressed at more than one location/plant, sometimes resulting in different deadwax info. As to your question, though, Todd, as you know, many different "takes" are normally laid down during the recording process. Sometimes producers would then "send the tape out" for remixing/added instrumentation. Also, in this particular case, "Nights..." "Bubbled Under" Billboard, at #103, in its initial 45 release, in Feb. 1968 (also as Deram 85023), so you really had a 1972 "from the vaults" issue here. Maybe an engineer, looking to make a new "master pressing", simply faded my (4:28) promo two seconds later. Or, to me, MUCH more likely, (4:28) was the FIRST one, with LATER masterers, trying to shave EVERY second off a "longish" 45, intentionally lopping (:02) off the end of "masters #2 and later," creating the "definitive" (4:26) 45 version. Based on the fact that the two promos were "listed (4:20), actual (3:13)", and "listed (3:06), actual (4:28)", it doesn't appear to me that, in this case, "the left hand knew what the right hand was doing" in this case, Todd. We CAN tell that timing was a concern to them, however. Even for the same 45, featuring mono/stereo versions, I OFTEN find slight timing differences. Maybe "John Smith" was the "mono 45 version guru" at a label, while "Paul Jones" was the "stereo 45 version guru", and they both got to 99.8 the same place, but not 100%, hence these minor time differences.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 24 March 2018 at 3:55pm | IP Logged
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UK's Uncut magazine ran a nice piece of the making of the song. Sound On Sound ran a more technical article. Both are worthwhile reads.
LP version (about 7:38)
The oldest CD I have with the LP version is Threshold/Polydor's Moody Blues collection Greatest Hits (1989), where it runs 7:38. It sounds pretty nice here - good dynamic range (or at least good in the quieter parts of the song), reasonable EQ, and no hint of noise reduction. The same analog transfer is used on:- Priority's Seventies Greatest Rock Hits Vol. 13 Request Line (1992)
- Polydor's Time Traveller (I think)
Non-hit 1978 remixed LP version (about 7:23)
From the liner notes to the 2017 CD/DVD deluxe version of Days Of Future Passed: "This 2CD/DVD deluxe set includes the full original 1967 stereo mix, which is being released on CD here for the first time. Due to a damaged master tape of the original mix, the album had been remixed in stereo in 1972 and since then it is this later mix, which has been used on all CD reissues." The LP versions I listed above sound like the original 1967-era mix to me, but I don't have the 1967 vinyl to compare. In any case, this "1978" mix is clearly a different mix.
I have the 1978 mix on Cema/Sandstone's Reelin' In The Years Vol. 4 (1991). A different analog transfer of the same source tape is used on Time-Life's 2-CD Singers And Songwriters Vol. 1 1972-1973 (2000) and Time-Life's Legends Crank It Up (2003; digitally exactly 2.3 dB louder than S&S; they did indeed crank it up, and as a result, it clips a bit - avoid). Reelin' and S&S both sound fine.
Early fades of the LP version
All of these are currently listed as "neither the 45 nor LP version" in the database.
There's a version running 5:37 on Sessions/Warner Special Products' 3-CD Secret Love (1987).
There's a version running 5:50 on Rhino's Billboard Top R&R Hits 1972 (1989). The same analog transfer is used on:- Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 3 1972 (1989) - digitally identical
- Sony's 2-CD 35 Years Of Rock And Roll (1992)
There's a version running 4:31 on Cema/Mystic Music's 2-CD Mellow Gold (1991), possibly with added noise reduction.
Avoid all of these; they didn't exist when the song was a US hit in 1972.
45 version (about 4:26)
The 1972 hit 45 version was in mono. It's unclear when the 45 mix was replicated in stereo, but most of the CD versions of the 45 are in stereo.
The oldest CD I have with the stereo 45 version is Threshold's Moody Blues collection Voices In The Sky (1985). The same analog transfer is used on:- Time-Life's Superhits Vol. 11 1972 (1991) - left/right channels are reversed, which is the case for all the tracks on this CD
- Time-Life's AM Gold Vol. 7 1972 (1991) - this is just the Superhits disc with different packaging; L/R channels are reversed
- Reader's Digest's 4-CD American Pie (1998) - L/R channels are reversed
- Reader's Digest's 4-CD Time In A Bottle (2006) - L/R channels are reversed
I have the 45 version in mono on Rhino's British Invasion Vol. 8 (1991).
Promo 45 version (3:13)
I don't know if this was on the 1967 UK 45, the 1968 US promo 45, the 1968 US commercial 45, or whatever was released in 1972. It doesn't exist on CD.
Spanish version ("Noches De Seda") (about 4:17)
I think this was recorded specifically for the 1995 CD Stars In Spanish multi-artist CD, but can't confirm. It's clearly a modern recording of the song.
My recommendations
For the LP version, go with Greatest Hits (1989).
For the 1978 remixed LP version, go with Time-Life's Singers And Songwriters Vol. 1 1972-1973 (2000).
For the 45 version in stereo, go with Voices In The Sky The Best Of (1985).
For the 45 version in mono, go with Rhino's British Invasion Vol. 8 (1991).
For the song in Spanish, go with Stars In Spanish (1995).
Edited by crapfromthepast on 25 March 2018 at 10:09am
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davidclark
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| Posted: 24 March 2018 at 10:04pm | IP Logged
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Great work on this one, Ron.
I've wanted to know when the stereo 45 first appeared, and after
doing some research, I found this:
1979 UK K-
Tel (!) LP "Out Of This World
Note that the LP plays in stereo. Checking out Discogs,
Rateyourmusic and other sites, I couldn't find an LP with the song
on it between 1972 and that 1979 k-tel (!) LP.
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NightAire
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| Posted: 16 September 2023 at 9:56am | IP Logged
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Are there specific differences I can listen for to identify one mix or the other of the LP length?
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 16 September 2023 at 3:58pm | IP Logged
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Gene - if you're looking for one tangible mix difference between the original LP version and the 1978 remixed LP version:
From 0:43 to 0:46, behind the lyrics of "beauty I'd always missed", there's a string patch.
In the original LP mix, the strings are mixed with some stereo effect. (Delay between channels? Not sure.) Regardless of what the effect is, it's very noticeable in headphones.
In the 1978 remixed LP version, the strings are mixed in the center of the soundstage. Also noticeable in headphones.
Hope that helps!
(The other answer is that if you have both mixes side-by-side, the 1978 mix sounds crystal clear, and the original 1967 mix sounds like 1967.)
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NightAire
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| Posted: 16 September 2023 at 4:01pm | IP Logged
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Exactly what I needed, Ron. I had a mix that sounded like the tape was a bit beat up, but the higher quality version sounded a bit "dead." Thanks for your help!!
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Gene Savage
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davidclark
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| Posted: 16 September 2023 at 6:27pm | IP Logged
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To answer my own question from 2018 (and Ron's unclear), I have since found
the existence of a 1972 stereo/mono promo, so it was first stereo then, but still
first LP issue on that k-tel LP AFAIK.
https://www.45cat.com/record/
4585023
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Moody Blues-"Nights In White Satin"
