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musicmanatl
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Posted: 19 April 2014 at 5:36pm \| IP Logged

Hello everyone - I've been having a great time looking through the Record Research book on the Cash Box charts, and it got me thinking of a question I bet someone here might know. What's the highest charting song during the rock era on Cash Box that didn't chart on the Hot 100?

I found an awesome song, "Walkin' The Fence" by Couchois, which reached #83 in March 1979 and failed to hit the Hot 100. This got me thinking.

I hope you all are having a great weekend!

Frank

aaronk
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Posted: 19 April 2014 at 5:49pm \| IP Logged

Maybe "The Letter" by Wayne Newton? I believe it hit #1 in 1992 but
didn't chart anywhere else.

Edited by aaronk on 19 April 2014 at 5:52pm

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musicmanatl
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Posted: 19 April 2014 at 6:04pm \| IP Logged

LOL I had forgotten about that! Their charts were truly out of touch with reality by that point. Wow. Thanks!

Brian W.
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Posted: 20 April 2014 at 1:53am \| IP Logged

Well, that was a one-time thing where obviously someone called in a favor.

musicmanatl
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Posted: 20 April 2014 at 6:03am \| IP Logged

Or called in a favor through Western Union. ;-)

If anyone else knows of another Cash Box hit in this category that doesn't appear to be completely ridiculous like the Wayne Newton example, let me know. Thanks!

aaronk
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Posted: 20 April 2014 at 6:57am \| IP Logged

Not to turn this into a Wayne Newton thread, but out of curiosity, was
there even a single released for "The Letter"?

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musicmanatl
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Posted: 20 April 2014 at 8:05am \| IP Logged

According to the Cash Box book, no. It lists "The Letter" as a Curb album cut.

The best part of this story is that "The Letter" interrupted Whitney's "I Will Always Love You" during its 13 week reign at the top of the Cash Box charts. Did they not think that people might question how this completely unknown song could knock one of the biggest hits of the rock era out of the #1 spot? lol Oh, what money can do.

This appears to be the only weird #1 during the last few years of Cash Box. All of the other #1 hits from the 1990s were also big hits on Billboard.

EdisonLite
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Posted: 20 April 2014 at 8:35am \| IP Logged

Not having seen the weekly Cash Box charts, can someone give the week-by-week performance of "The Letter"? That would be interesting. Did it debut at #1 and was gone a few weeks later? Given that there was likely a payout or favor or gift involved the week it was #1, I'd just be curious to know if Cash Box allowed it to have a typical rise to #1 (like 8-10 weeks) and then a regular fall down the top 100. I doubt it!

I think elsewhere on this board it was reported that the guy responsible for the Cash Box charts, who did this, got fired. But I just don't get how he could think he could put an ALBUM CUT at #1 - with no singles sales (not to mention it not getting played on pop radio) and still think he'd have a job a couple weeks later?

Perhaps what he received was so much greater than his annual salary that he knew he'd get fired and didn't mind. We can only guess...

Edited by EdisonLite on 20 April 2014 at 8:35am

80smusicfreak
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Posted: 20 April 2014 at 8:58am \| IP Logged

musicmanatl wrote:

Hello everyone - I've been having a great time looking through the Record Research book on the Cash Box charts, and it got me thinking of a question I bet someone here might know.

I, too, bought RR's new book, Cash Box Pop Hits 1952-1996; it arrived in my mailbox back in early February. In fact, during the first couple of weeks that I had it, I spent hours poring over it, page-by-page, even though I've owned Pat's book, Cash Box Pop Singles Charts, 1950-1993, since it practically first came out in 1994 (that was actually my introduction to his work). And while I spotted several errors in the new RR book along the way, and also formed some questions/observations/criticisms based on what I read in it, curiosity regarding the Cash Box-exclusive hits vs. Billboard got the better of me, too, especially since RR made it easy to pick them out w/ that "star" symbol next to the song titles that qualified...

So not once, but TWICE, I sifted through every listing in the book, and compiled a COMPLETE chronological list on my pc of those Cash Box-exclusive hits, from January 1, 1975, to November 16, 1996 (end of publication). In addition, I made a COMPLETE ranked list of all Cash Box-exclusive songs that cracked the magazine's top 80 from September 18, 1965 (end of the "coat-tail" era), to November 16, 1996 (end of publication). Both lists include numerous tag-along B-sides and Christmas hits from the '60s, '70s, & '80s, as well as album cuts (i.e., non-singles) from the '90s...

At the request of Paul Haney, I won't post any of the actual songs/artists/chart info from my lists here. However, just to tantalize you (and anyone else who may be "Walkin' the Fence" about buying RR's new book, lol), here's a list of the NUMBER of songs that cracked the top 100 in Cash Box, but failed to make either the "Hot 100" or "Bubbling Under" charts in Billboard for each year, from 1975-1996 (figures based on when they actually PEAKED in Cash Box):

1975: 37
1976: 24
1977: 23
1978: 16
1979: 16 (inc. "Walkin' the Fence" by Couchois)
1980: 4
1981: 6
1982: 7
1983: 3
1984: 0 (+1 re-entry)
1985: 1 (+1 re-entry)
1986: 6
1987: 2
1988: 7
1989: 10
1990: 4
1991: 25
1992: 22
1993: 1
1994: 4
1995: 2
1996: 0

Note: The re-entry from both 1984 and 1985 was a Christmas hit that first charted in 1983. So there was a total of 220 songs from that 22-year period - not counting the two re-entries of that one Christmas hit...

Quote:

What's the highest charting song during the rock era on Cash Box that didn't chart on the Hot 100?

Since it's no secret, I can confirm that yes, the crown definitely goes to Wayne Newton's 1992 hit, "The Letter", which went all the way to #1 in Cash Box during a 31-week run. (You'll see there's even a footnote under the song stating so, on pg. 278...)

I can't speak for any hits that charted between October 25, 1952 (first chart researched for the book), and September 18, 1965 (end of the "coat-tail" era), as the number of non-Billboard hits was WAY more numerous back then - not to mention it's a period of time that is of little interest to me personally - but thanks to my research & ranked list, I can also say that there were 89 songs that cracked the top 80 in Cash Box w/o making an appearance in Billboard ("Hot 100" or "Bubbling Under"), from 09/18/65-11/16/96. If you omit tag-along B-sides and Christmas hits, there was only ONE other song (besides "The Letter") that cracked the top 40 in Cash Box, but failed completely in Billboard. :-) Oh, and here's a hint, since you already have the book: It was a commercial single (not album cut) that hit #34 in 1992, and you'll find it on pg. 339. ;-) (If you include tag-along B-sides and Christmas hits, this song actually falls to fifth overall...)

Quote:

[The Cash Box] charts were truly out of touch with reality by [the early '90s]. Wow.

I will strongly disagree. Brian W. is right - in the case of Wayne Newton and "The Letter", yes, something underhanded clearly took place. :-) In fact, in addition to Billboard, I actually bought Cash Box on a weekly basis for a two-year period, from 1989-91 (which is the era in question), and still have them to this day. And actually, the only reason I stopped buying Cash Box was because I relocated from SoCal to Long Island at the time, and could no longer find CB on newsstands in NY (CB being an L.A.-based publication, of course). I can't deny that as far as coverage of the music biz, the size of Billboard trumped Cash Box - but when it came to the charts, were BB's infinitely superior to CB??? I've never thought so, and that applies to every era, including the '90s. In fact, I know on more than one occasion that Pat has lamented here on this chat board about how most folks seem to put the Billboard charts on a pedastal above everyone else's (inc. Cash Box), but I'm w/ him - I don't get it! For me, the charts merely make a great starting point for trying to find more good "hits" from the past (especially since I find most of the popular music of roughly the last 15-20 years so unappealing). Let's face it, the numbers & hits achieved in Billboard certainly aren't set in stone, either - IMHO, some people are just a bit too "by-the-numbers"...

Quote:

I found an awesome song, "Walkin' The Fence" by Couchois, which reached #83 in March 1979 and failed to hit the Hot 100.

I've had the group's 1979 s/t debut on cassette for about 20 years now, and first discovered their chart entry in Pat's original 1994 Cash Box book. There are indeed some forgotten low-charting/non-charting gems from that era - and I certainly haven't heard them all, and am always looking to discover more - but personally, I've always been kinda lukewarm on "Walkin' the Fence". (Not bad, but I can tell why it didn't crack the top 40.) For those who've never heard it, here it is on YouTube, as posted by the group's guitarist, Patrick Couchois: Couchois - "Walkin' the Fence"

80smusicfreak
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Posted: 20 April 2014 at 9:08am \| IP Logged

EdisonLite wrote:

Funny, I researched this, too, back when I compiled my lists in February. :-) Here it is (debuted on 07/25/92; * = bullet; f = frozen): 77*-72*-66*-62*-56*-52*-50*-47*-44*-41*-39*-36*-33*-31*-29*- 27*-26-25*-10*-4*-1*-4-4-4f-4f-11-26-48-70-92-99...

Brian W.
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Posted: 20 April 2014 at 1:50pm \| IP Logged

80smusicfreak wrote:

I can't deny that as far as coverage of the music biz, the size of Billboard trumped Cash Box - but when it came to the charts, were BB's infinitely superior to CB??? I've never thought so, and that applies to every era, including the '90s. In fact, I know on more than one occasion that Pat has lamented here on this chat board about how most folks seem to put the Billboard charts on a pedastal above everyone else's (inc. Cash Box), but I'm w/ him - I don't get it! For me, the charts merely make a great starting point for trying to find more good "hits" from the past (especially since I find most of the popular music of roughly the last 15-20 years so unappealing). Let's face it, the numbers & hits achieved in Billboard certainly aren't set in stone, either - IMHO, some people are just a bit too "by-the-numbers"...

I agree. Especially with revelations in recent years that the director of the Billboard charts in the late 1970s/early '80s, Bill Wardlow, flat-out accepted bribes to get a record on the chart. (Wardlow was fired by Billboard in 1983, apparently, over his chart-fixing.)

Ran across this tidbit online. The info is apparently taken from a book, though I'm not sure which one:

Quote:

By April of 1978 RSO had racked-up 5 consecutive Billboard No. 1's, between the BEE GEEs and (after insane promotion work) Andy Gibb. But, for love nor (a whole lot of) money, they couldn't get the Yvonne Elliman record to No. 1.

There was a Billboard conference in Venice, Italy. [RSO's Al] Coury was asked to be on a panel, but resisted. Until he heard that Bill Wardlow, who did the magazine's charts, would attend. He arrived on the same flight as Bill. And RSO's International person, the late Michael Hutson, took them to the most expensive hotel. A trip around Venice in a Gondola. And on their way back to the hotel, after a hugely expensive dinner, Al told Michael "I'm finished here. I'm taking him home." Michael asked "What's going on? Who is this guy?" Al said, "This is Bill Wardlow. It's about my f*%*ing Yvonne Elliman record! I've GOT to get it to No. 1 somehow!" The next week, Yvonne Elliman was No. 1

And if you think this was simply about pushing his artists, consider this: When "If I Can't Have You" hit No. 1 on Billboard, it established 3 Records:
1. It was the fourth number one single from the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack, the only motion picture to produce that many chart-topping 45s.

2. It was the fourth consecutive number one single to be written by Barry Gibb, breaking the record set by John Lennon and Paul McCartney, who penned three consecutive number ones in 1964.

3. It was the sixth consecutive number one single for RSO Records. No other label until that time had ever had more than two consecutive 45s reach the top of the Billboard Hot 100. RSO dominated the chart summit for 21 weeks in a row, and would log another 10 weeks at one before the last day of 1978.

Having Yvonne, herself, get a No. 1, was probably the least of their reasons. (You didn't see promotion like that again for her, did you?) RSO had so much more than that riding on this particular No. 1 slot, in May of 1978.

jimct
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Posted: 20 April 2014 at 7:30pm \| IP Logged

This is a theory meant for entertainment purposes only. Please treat it like
a UFO sighting. I think I saw something in the late 70s, but I am not sure.

First off, I am not looking to sling mud on any person, or any trade
magazine here. (I also ask my friend Paul Haney for permission to cite
some "menusha chart specifics", from my RR books. I try to do this only
rarely. But, to me, citing some specific chart-run-facts handy here is
necessary to my theory. There are many reasons why I always buy all the
RR books - the info it provided me here is just the latest instance why I'm
so glad I do. So whether BB or CB is your trade mag choice, RR, Mr.
Whitburn & Paul Haney now hook us up either way!)   :)

Brian, I really enjoyed your last post. I found Al Coury's "four #1 BB 45s in
a row written by Barry Gibb" mission totally fascinating. It was all new
information to me. And it really helped me to better understand the
extremely unusual hit journey of the second of the 4 songs, and 4th in the
6-string of consecutive RSO #1s (How Deep Is Your Love/Baby Come
Back/Stayin' Alive/(Love Is) Thicker Than Water/Night Fever/If I Can't Have
You): Andy Gibb's "(Love Is) Thicker Than Water". It's always puzzled me.

His first single, "I Just Want To Be Your Everything" debuted in April, was a
4-week #1 in July/August in the summer of 1977. Million seller. It spent
over 30 weeks on the Hot 100. His debut LP, "Flowing Rivers" came out in
July '77. Trust me when I say that it is highly unusual for the all-important
second single, for a new hit act, to not come until 3 months after the first
hit has peaked, and is on the way down the charts. Even more so when the
follow-up track (....Thicker....) has already been long ready to go, just
sitting there on his album. Finally, it debuts on 11/5/77, and at a way-
less-than-impressive #89. During the final 8 weeks of 1977, here's the
song's Hot 100 progress: 78-67-53-43-39-37-32.

In 12/77, one month after "...Thicker..." comes out on 45, "Stayin' Alive"
does the same. To no one's surprise, the latter quickly flies up the chart,
replacing RSO's "Baby Come Back", and begins its 4-week run at #1 on
2/4/78. And guess which 45 debuts on BB in that very same issue? "Night
Fever". It's in the Top 20 just two weeks later, the Top 10 the next, and
begins its 8-wk run at #1 just 3 weeks later, on 3/18/78.

It turns out that there was just a two-chart-week window between the two
Bee Gees #1 hits from SNF - 3/4/78 and 3/11/78. It's safe to say that
RSO knew that Night Fever" would hit #1 BB, 6 weeks after its 45 release,
from the moment they put it out. It was very unusual to see another Bee
Gees 45 be put out as soon as "Night Fever" was. "Stayin' Alive" was
nowhere near over yet. It had just started its full month at #1. But can you
say "RSO Master Plan?". And can you say "could we (RSO) possibly thread
the needle?" Let's go back to "...Thicker...".

Historically, the first week of a new year is an especially good time to
successfully promote tracks to radio. In part, because "superstar" releases
were always issued in time for holiday consumer buying. And it was
coming off of the only, generally accepted "It's OK to freeze your station
playlist for a week or two" time of the year: Christmas/New Years'. So it
was always a major week for all in the industry, to get "back to the grind".

Only a handful of "secondary" Top 40 stations had added "...Thicker..." in
its first 9, 1977 weeks (in Idaho, S Carolina, Hawaii, for example.) Looks
like just barely enough stations played it for the song to keep its essential
BB "bullet", which was usually around a 10-place upward move, if below
the Top 40. Check back to the end of my fourth paragraph for its
progression. That's exactly what happened.

Once 1978 began, the song had just finally cracked the Top 40. Suddenly,
markets like Detroit, Kansas City, Washington DC, and
Hartford/Springfield kicked in, and finally added the now over two-month
old 45. Why now? Why not earlier? Didn't radio know who Andy Gibb was
until then? Not likely. All I do know for sure is that all it would take for
stations to *not* add a record that week would be if the RSO rep would
say to us "You know, _____, we're just not 100% sure about the Andy Gibb
record yet. Hey, you and I are friends. And I'd hate to ask you for an add
on it until I'm totally sure." Now record reps were usually a million %
behind every single song they wanted us to add that week. But they also
knew that it helped their credibility with us if, on occasion, they'd share
some "off the record" info with us. (wink wink.) Even though it was 100% a
game, at both ends. Labels want to sell records the most. Radio wants
high ratings the most. So we both always tried to co-exist, as cordially as
possible, all the while knowing that we have very different ultimate goals.
Bottom line? They needed us, and we needed them.

During January of 1978, "....Thicker...." had begun on BB at #32, and
ended it at #10. And now I'm hearing it move up big on AT40 each week.
And on my favorite Hartford Top 40 station as well. But, by 2/1/78, the
song has still not been added at my station. I was a bit surprised. Now, I
had only just started interning there then. And I had very little, if any,
contact with the music department. All I was trying to do was to make a
good impression. They had no idea then, that I was basically a walking
Top 40 music encyclopedia, collector, and deep historian of the station,
as best as I could be, being just a 20-year-old, loyal listener. I also
remembered that the station had also never played another recent hit on
RSO, 1976's "Love So Right", for reasons still unknown. And were
extremely late to add RSO's "Disco Duck", as well.

Well, as always, I tuned in to the on-air reveal of the new, weekly Top 30
survey. Wednesday nights, at 7PM. Guess what song debuts that week
(2/5/78) at the unheard-of, high position of #14? You guessed it. "(Love
Is) Thicker Than Water". More than three months after it first came in.

By 2/1/78, with "...Thicker..." now in the national Top 10, I'll bet the # of
remaining, BB-reporting Top 40 "holdouts", that had still not added the
song, were in single digits. So why do I get this feeling in my gut, that
earlier this very same week, RSO's Al Coury had asked his secretary for a
list of stations where "...Thicker..." was either not being played at all yet,
or was "underperforming", as to its low ranking on a survey. (This info
would be easily "gettable" for a guy in Coury's position.) As a reporting
station, my local station surely appeared on it. Then, within just a couple
of days, the record is suddenly added at #14. After it had been collecting
dust there for more than 3 months?

Now I am not privy to anything that happened with the song that week,
between our then-MD and the station's RSO record rep. All I can say is
that RSO must've made a *very* persuasive case to the MD/PD! I honestly
have no recollection. I was still in college, and really wasn't there all that
much yet. But I can surely see something like a "free Saturday Night Fever
soundtrack giveaway weekend", or even Andy Gibb himself calling in for a
quick, on-air "phoner", as things RSO could've dangled at us, in exchange
for a quick, sky-high "...Thicker..." add. Especially if RSO is trying to
"thread the needle", and position the song as a viable #1 BB candidate in
between a possible "Stayin' Alive" and "Night Fever" #1 gap, just 5-6
weeks later. And while that Wardlow guy at BB could surely get away with
some chart liberties outside the Top 10, even he would have to know, at
least back in 1978, that when he ranked a song as #1, he'd better have
both the nationwide station airplay and sales data to justify it to his
bosses.

Hey, I'm certainly not trying to throw my own station under the bus here.
I'm sure any other straggler Top 40 stations got a similar "impassioned"
call from RSO. All history now shows us is that "(Love Is) Thicker Than
Water" did manage to occupy the #1 spot for both of the two weeks
between "Stayin' Alive" and "Night Fever". Neither "...Thicker..." nor "If I
Can't Have You" seems to have had reached #1 on more than a handful of
local station surveys, based on info I can browse now. So that may have
been why Coury wanted to take advantage of every in-person meet-up he
could possible get with Wardlow, at this key time for his label, and for his
immediate #1 goal, if you will....

Thanks for indulging my wild imagination. A little numerical data can be a
very dangerous thing!    :)

Edited by jimct on 20 April 2014 at 7:42pm

musicmanatl
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Posted: 20 April 2014 at 8:50pm \| IP Logged

This is such a great discussion! I think the reason that many of us regard the Billboard charts as definitive is because those were the only charts that we had access to for a very long time. However (as was noted earlier), how we can be certain that the Billboard charts were the most accurate? We each were only able to listen to the top 40 stations in our local market, which may or may not have reflected the same amount of popularity as Billboard's weekly charts. Was "Sail On" really a #1 hit and "Pop Muzik" wasn't? We'll never really know. All we can tell now is what the consensus of the three weekly charts was.

As I read Jim's projection about "(Love Is) Thicker Than Water" and "If I Can't Have You", I had to laugh at my reaction. I'm just so used to thinking of them as #1 records that it's almost difficult to think of them as making #1 because of favors or money. I heard both records so often in Cleveland that they seemed like #1 records - or does my memory think I heard them that often because I have known they were #1 hits in Billboard for the past 35 years?

Thanks for all of these thoughtful comments!

musicmanatl
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Posted: 20 April 2014 at 8:52pm \| IP Logged

Oh, and thanks, 80smusicfreak, for the tip about the highest charting song in Cash Box that didn't chart in Billboard (not including the Wayne Newton oddity). I've never heard of it before, but I'm going to seek it out now. Very interesting...

AndrewChouffi
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Posted: 21 April 2014 at 5:38am \| IP Logged

To Jim:

Great story featuring the late Al Coury!

Even Paul McCartney has extolled the virtues of Mr. Coury's promotional strategies, as Al was to become very involved in the promotion of LP 'Band On The Run' and its latter two singles. Coury was of course one of the top national promo guys at Capitol before he became a principal at RSO. (Search YouTube for the interviews.)

John Lennon was apparently also impressed with Coury's handiwork; Coury helped create a #1 & a #9 (Dream) off of Lennon's 'Walls And Bridges'.

Andy

cmmmbase
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Posted: 21 April 2014 at 6:57am \| IP Logged

The Wayne Newton song "The (Elvis) Letter" (the way it is
titled on the cd) is on the promotional cd single Curb
1008.

Paul C
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Posted: 21 April 2014 at 2:05pm \| IP Logged

In The Billboard Book Of Number 1 Hits, Fred Bronson quotes comments made to Dick Clark by Andy Gibb himself about the chart progress of "(Love Is) Thicker Than Water":

"It slowed down...we were all a little scared. There's lots of points where all the record people at RSO said they were a little worried that it was stopping. It didn't lose its bullet, but it really heavily lost its jump in sales activity. And then, for an equally strange reason, it just picked up and nothing stopped it. So it was not predictable..."

Paul Haney
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Posted: 22 April 2014 at 3:50am \| IP Logged

The problem with Cash Box in the late 1980s/early 1990s is the songs that were obviously hits that didn't even make their Top 100 chart. Some examples: "Little Miss Can't Be Wrong" by Spin Doctors, "Nothin' To Hide" by Poco and "You Could Be Mine" by Guns N' Roses (although that one, at least, hit #104 on the "Looking Ahead" chart).

Speaking of the "Looking Ahead" charts, we're now done with the weekly research and will be putting the new book together. Hopefully it'll be out this summer. There are well over 3,500 non-Billboard hits from that chart and yes, we're including EVERYTHING that peaked on that chart, not just those non-BB hits.

BTW, "Walkin' The Fence" by Couchois also hit #85 in Record World.

Edited by Paul Haney on 22 April 2014 at 3:52am

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