Top 40 Music on Compact Disc: Daryl Hall-"Dreamtime"

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Todd Ireland
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Posted: 10 June 2006 at 5:08pm \| IP Logged

jimct wrote:

We even actually received ONE PROMO cassette into the station! Any guesses? Actually, a few months LATER, in March of 1987, (the now, apparently cutting-edge) A&M records again, sent us a 45 AND cassette sealed "Radio-Take Your Pick" 2-pack for Bryan Adams "Heat Of The Night." What was A&M thinking? Cassettes for radio?? Oh, yeah, casettes make "carting up" music a snap!@#%&! I still have that sealed copy. Wonder what it would fetch on eBay???

I couldn't help but chuckle at your post, Jim, because I actually did work for a small market radio station in the late '90s where we actually did cue up and play cassette singles from the early '90s on the air! Let me tell ya, those things were a pain to work with!

Edited by Todd Ireland on 10 June 2006 at 5:09pm

jimct
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Posted: 10 June 2006 at 5:37pm \| IP Logged

Hope they included "hazardous duty", combat pay for your added "cassette expertise," Todd! Can't believe it! I've only heard of college radio using cassettes on-air.

Paul Haney
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Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:55am \| IP Logged

Brian W. wrote:

Those are some fascinating posts, 80smusicfreak! So... don't keep us waiting. What WERE the few cassette singles that were released in the late '60s?

I'd also like more info on those late '60s cassette singles. Also, what were some of the pre-"Heat of The Night" '80s titles? Can we acutually pinpoint the very first ever commercial cassette single?

elcoleccionista
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Posted: 11 June 2006 at 8:11am \| IP Logged

Paul Haney wrote:

Also, what were some of the pre-"Heat of The Night" '80s titles?

I came across this interesting New York Times article called "Cassette Singles: New 45's". It was published in September 9, 1987.

It does mention an 80's release that dates back to 1982, here are the paragraphs:

"...In 1982, International Records Syndicate released the Go-Go's "Vacation" as a cassette single, with two songs appearing on both sides.

"At that point, I think it was very well-received for something that people had never seen before,"" said Barbara Bolan, vice president of sales at the label. "But a total industry push, like what is happening now, makes a lot of difference."

"Vacation" was marketed as a "cassingle", and International Record Syndicate trademarked the word. "We wanted everybody to use it"", Ms. Bolan said, "but there was resistance on the part of the other manufacturers because they would have to indicate that "cassingle" was a registered trademark of I.R.S. Records....""

Here's the complete article:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DEED91531F 931A3575AC0A961948260&sec=&pagewanted=1

Search for other posts by elcoleccionista

80smusicfreak
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 4:46pm \| IP Logged

elcoleccionista wrote:

An extra long post from an 80's
music freak...

I LOVED IT FROM START TO END!

Thanks, lol. Thought I might've gotten a bit long-winded
there, but after seeing all the responses it got, maybe
not... :-)

Quote:

This gets more entertaining by the hour, thank
you Pat and all members for this great forum : )

Let me say that I've certainly learned a lot from my
(nearly) two years here as well. Like jimct, I admit I
definitely don't have the ear to dissect the single
version of a song down to the presence or absence of a
single "whoosh" sound, heard only in one channel, and
most likely noticeable only w/ headphones at that (as you
guys recently did on another thread w/ Janet Jackson's
"Nasty"), but I do like knowing which version of a song
I'm getting on a CD before I buy it, which is a great
part of what Pat's book and database provides.
Personally, I've always had a preference for maxi-singles
and/or LP versions (since they're usually - but yes, I
realize not always - longer), but this site has
definitely opened my eyes as to just how often single
versions of songs were unique mixes, and not just early
fades or chopped-up edits of the LP versions (as I
previously thought). You folks here have definitely done
a fantastic job of exposing these different single mixes
as well as discovering some different commercial
pressings of the same 45, and frankly, w/ the
collectibility of vinyl, I'm surprised at how much of
this has proven to be "uncharted territory", so to speak.
So to that end, I say keep up the great work, everyone,
and I also thank Pat for this forum!
:-)

80smusicfreak
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 5:44pm \| IP Logged

Paul Haney wrote:

80smusicfreak wrote:

Now if you
look in Joel Whitburn's "Top Pop Singles" book, you'll
see he claims in Bryan Adams' entry under "Heat of the
Night" that the song was "the first '45' also issued as a
cassette single". Frankly, that always makes me laugh,
because it's fa-a-ar from true. (Is Paul Haney
reading???)

Yes, I'm reading! Perhaps that note should be re-worded
to "the first regularly issued cassette single"

Thanks, Paul - sounds good, at least for starters. :-)
But better yet, I'll bet Whitburn's many readers/music
enthusiasts/single historians wouldn't mind a more
detailed explanation in the "User's Guide" at the
beginning of his book, stating much of the info I gave
above (the folks here seemed pretty impressed, anyway)...
:-)

And while we're on the subject, it also begs one other
nagging question I've always had about his singles books:
If singles in cassette form were the dominant choice of
U.S. consumers starting in 1987 (as in fact they were),
why is it that Whitburn has always chosen 1990 as the
starting point for acknowledging the cassette single as
the "standard configuration"??? Now I agree that a case
can certainly be made for continuing to use vinyl 45s as
the standard for 1987, since the earliest singles from
that year weren't released in cassette form, as well as
some of the lower-charting ones through the remainder of
the year. However, the same can't be said for the years
1988 and '89. Right now, thanks to Whitburn's books, it
wouldn't surprise me if most folks (including those here
before they read my post) actually think it wasn't until
1990 that cassette singles passed vinyl 45s in
popularity. So will we ever see a change there, just to
keep history accurate???

80smusicfreak
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 7:35pm \| IP Logged

Brian W. wrote:

Those are some fascinating posts,
80smusicfreak! So... don't keep us waiting. What WERE
the few cassette singles that were released in the late
'60s?

Well, please bear in mind that this is definitely
uncharted territory! In fact, to this day, I've found NO
lists, catalogs, old magazine articles, or any other form
of written documentation stating what titles were issued
on cassette single that far back - even "Schwann" didn't
start listing ALBUM-length cassettes and 8-tracks in
their catalogs until '71 (and even then, they always
contained numerous omissions in the two tape formats!).
So basically, that means I can only go by what I and a
small circle of fellow cassette collectors have stumbled
across while out on our record-store travels over the
last 15-20 years, and more recently, on eBay (although I
don't regularly search for them there). The cassette was
introduced in the U.S. in late '66/early '67, so it's
also worth keeping in mind that they made up only about
5% of the album market in those early years (trailing
both vinyl LPs and 8-tracks, not to mention competition
from other less-popular formats, including 4-tracks and
reel-to-reels - ah, the CHOICES back then!). Translation:
Cassettes of that vintage are rare enough in album-length
form, so you can imagine how rare that would make any
cassette singles!

At any rate, the oldest cassette single I've ever seen
was for "Soul Finger" by the Bar-Kays, from the Summer of
'67. And unfortunately, by the time I found it around
1990, it had at some point in time become separated from
its original case and/or inserts - in other words, it was
just the tape itself. Shortly thereafter, I traded it to
a fellow cassette collector who was also a die-hard
Bar-Kays fan. I still occasionally keep in touch w/ him,
though, and I believe he still has it...

There were also many cassette-only EPs released back in
the late '60s (w/ no vinyl equivalent, although from the
ones I've seen, the material on those EPs was available
on full-length vinyl LPs), and they seem to have been a
bit more common, relatively speaking...

Well, that's it for tonight - I'll try to respond to the
rest of the posts in this thread in the coming
days...

torcan
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Posted: 23 June 2006 at 6:41am \| IP Logged

80smusicfreak wrote:

[QUOTE=Paul Haney] [QUOTE=80smusicfreak]
If singles in cassette form were the dominant choice of
U.S. consumers starting in 1987 (as in fact they were),
why is it that Whitburn has always chosen 1990 as the
starting point for acknowledging the cassette single as
the "standard configuration"???

I think it's because he used the standard configuration that Billboard itself used. It wasn't until around mid-1990 that Billboard recognized the cassette single as its standard configuration on the Hot 100.

There were so many hits available only on cassette and CD (and not on vinyl) at that time it's almost like they had no choice.

What I don't like about Whitburn's books is that from 1990-98 they only indicate cassette single availability - there was a lot released on CD single back then but it's not indicated in his books.

80smusicfreak
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Posted: 27 June 2006 at 12:48pm \| IP Logged

elcoleccionista wrote:

80smusicfreak wrote:

...Cooper
does state that 1986 was the first year that promo CD
singles were issued here in the U.S...

I always hated how very late the cd single format was
introduced in the USA in both its promo and commercial
forms.

The explanation for that is really quite simple: As I
noted earlier, by 1986, the cassette was king here in the
U.S., and while the tape format had been #1 in album
sales for over three years at that point, it had seen
only some half-hearted attempts at
supplementing/replacing vinyl in singles form. For
whatever reason, during the early to mid '80s, there was
a fairly strong mentality among the old folks in suits at
the majors (as well as, ahem, radio dj's) that the buying
public couldn't or wouldn't accept singles in any other
form but vinyl (including CD - not just cassette). So as
the gap between album-length cassettes and vinyl LPs
continued to widen by '86, since CD sales were still just
a minor blip, the natural progression was to get behind
the cassette as a singles successor...

And as I said before, the cassette single more than
succeeded that first year out (1987), even outselling
vinyl 45s - something that most of the suits hadn't
expected. (And part of that may have also had something
to do w/ giving consumers more for their money: Almost
all cassette singles came w/ picture sleeves/boxes -
unlike their vinyl 45 rpm counterparts - as well as
repeating the A- and B-sides on both sides, again, unlike
vinyl 45s.) If anything, it just proved that the
universal support of the cassette single came along way
too late - by some five to six years, in fact!

Point being, now that another format besides vinyl had
proven successful in singles form, and w/ album-length CD
sales still rising, the labels were much quicker to get
behind the silver discs in both promo and commercial
form, starting in 1988. But w/ cassettes garnering over
80% of the singles market by the end of '89, the number
of releases on commercial CD single and maxi-single would
remain just a trickle until the early '90s. (Fact: Even
album-length CDs didn't pass cassettes here in the U.S.
until 1992!) Of course, also hindering their mass
introduction in CD form was the retail price: "Okay, we
now know that the buying public will accept singles in a
non-vinyl format, but are they also willing to pay extra
at the cash register if we put them on these shiny new
indestructible 5" discs that will last them a lifetime,
not to mention they'll cost us more to manufacture???"

Quote:

Mainly because it resulted in having no choice
other than a 7" single for many of my dearest 80's remix
edits : D

Or if you're talking post-"Heat of the Night",
cassette... ;-)

Quote:

1) Now, which was the very first promo cd single
by any artist Warner put out? If memory serves well I
remember a promo CD for Fleetwood Mac's "Big Love", so
could 1987 be Warner's inaugural year? Proud promo CD
recipients from the heyday, step forward please! : D

"Big Love" is indeed listed in Cooper's book as well, and
as jimct's interesting collection proves, yes, 1987 was
apparently when WEA jumped
onboard...

80smusicfreak
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Posted: 27 June 2006 at 1:59pm \| IP Logged

Paul Haney wrote:

Also, what were some of the pre-"Heat
of The Night" '80s titles?

Well, believe it or not, many of the ones I've found were
for songs that MISSED the top 40, so I suppose that would
be going beyond the scope of this forum - not only that,
but some were r&b hits that failed to cross over to the
"Hot 100" altogether. And I suppose I should also point
out that the vast majority were actually MAXI-singles
(i.e., 12" vinyl equivalent) as opposed to regular
singles...

But that 1982 "cassingle" (I've always hated that term,
BTW) for "Vacation" by the Go-Go's - which of course WAS
a top 40 hit - mentioned in the 1987 "New York Times"
article that elcoleccionista uncovered is definitely one
of the easiest to find, relatively speaking. (I own two
or three copies, and have run across a total of about six
or seven in the last 15-20 years.) Like its vinyl 45
counterpart, it was b/w "Beatnik Beach", and I believe
the picture sleeve is also the same. Came in a hard
plastic case w/ an inlay card (unlike the cardboard
sleeves that were introduced on most cassette singles in
'87). Oh, and who distributed the I.R.S. label back in
'82??? Yep, A&M... :-)

Quote:

Can we acutually pinpoint the very first
ever commercial cassette single?

W/ so few from the late '60s left in existence, and not
that many cassette collectors, I seriously doubt it. :-(
However, I'm always interested in finding out about more,
and will continue to grab any and all pre-"Heat of the
Night" cassette singles that I run across during my
travels (assuming I don't have them already, and
regardless of chart success)...
:-)

80smusicfreak
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Posted: 27 June 2006 at 3:20pm \| IP Logged

torcan wrote:

80smusicfreak wrote:

If singles in
cassette form were the dominant choice of
U.S. consumers starting in 1987 (as in fact they were),
why is it that Whitburn has always chosen 1990 as the
starting point for acknowledging the cassette single as
the "standard configuration"???

Yes, that's true, as I do remember that. But like me, so
many other people here in this forum seem to feel that
whichever format was the dominant one during the year in
question should define the "standard" single release. And
as we've already discovered from several examples
(whether it's vinyl 45 vs. cassette single or cassette
single vs. CD single), record labels didn't always use
the same mix/edit/version of a song on their singles,
when released in multiple formats at the same time. So
although I don't own a lot of cassette singles from
1987-89, it wouldn't surprise me if quite a few of them
had versions of their hits that were different from their
vinyl 45 counterparts. Yet Whitburn - and consequently,
folks here, including Pat in his database - are treating
the vinyl versions from those three years as the
"standard", when they shouldn't. But hopefully, Paul will
chime in on Whitburn's stance... :-)

Quote:

There were so many hits available only on
cassette and CD (and not on vinyl) at that time it's
almost like they had no choice.

Yes, but "Billboard" waited WAY too long, IMHO...

Quote:

What I don't like about Whitburn's books is that
from 1990-98 they only indicate cassette single
availability - there was a lot released on CD single back
then but it's not indicated in his books.

True, but thankfully I've held onto all of my old issues
of "Billboard" (even if they are in storage right now),
and thus can refer back to the format-availability
indicators on their charts from that period, if
necessary...

And while I'm on the subject, a note to edtop40 in
particular, since he's brought this up in the past on
other threads: While the format-indicators on the
magazine's charts were great, they didn't always get it
right 100% of the time. There were several occasions
where I noticed a particular single WAS available in a
certain format, and not indicated as such on their
charts! Case in point: I remember when Us3's top 40 hit,
"Cantaloop", was riding up the charts in 1993-94,
"Billboard" never indicated it was available here in the
U.S. as a cassette maxi-single when, in fact, it WAS - so
the availability symbols can't be treated as gospel, only
a guide...

And on another note, since you're from the Great White
North, torcan, I'd like to point out that Canada also got
into the cassette singles game prior to 1987, and "Heat
of the Night". One of the easiest to find up there is the
cassette maxi-single for the Pet Shop Boys' top 40 hit
from 1986, "Opportunities (Let's Make Lots of Money)".
And to the best of my knowledge, it didn't come out in
the U.S. in cassette form (regular or maxi-), so it's a
nice addition to my collection, as that song has always
been a favorite of mine...
:-)

torcan
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Posted: 28 June 2006 at 6:26am \| IP Logged

80smusicfreak wrote:

I did too - and they take up a LOT of room. I'd eventually like to see Whitburn indicate which were CD singles back then. He does a good job on the vinyl releases, which would be nice if he extended to his album book as a lot of albums have been on vinyl since 1990 as well!

Quote:

While the format-indicators on the
magazine's charts were great, they didn't always get it
right 100% of the time.

That was especially true with the (v) symbols for 45s. They actually erred both ways over time. There were some songs from the early '90s in which a (v) was indicated, but one was never released. I wonder if the record company reported they'd release it on vinyl and then changed their mind(?) There were also numerous times where a (v) wasn't listed, but one WAS available.

For that matter, it drove me crazy which songs got vinyl releases and which ones didn't. It made no sense whatsoever and wasn't consistent from release to release. Some examples, most of the time they'd do a vinyl version if the song became a hit - but there were many occasions where you could find a vinyl version on a non-hit, but a big Top 10 wouldn't be available :(

Quote:

And on another note, since you're from the Great White
North, torcan, I'd like to point out that Canada also got
into the cassette singles game prior to 1987, and "Heat
of the Night".

Yes, I remember when that was out and didn't think much of it at the time - I've never been a fan of that format. I think I own about 7 of them only because there was no vinyl or CD version available.

Canada continued to release vinyl 45s until about spring 1990 - after that they were few and far between (although the 12-inch singles and vinyl albums continued to be pressed here for quite a while). We had cassette singles for a while but they didn't really catch on, and then a push towards CD singles. For a few years we had $3.99 CD singles that weren't released on that format in the States, but now that things have moved more to downloads they've all but disappeared. Some exceptions include the "American Idol" and "Canadian Idol" winners, who always get single releases because their albums are always several months after the competition.

NightAire
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Posted: 28 February 2010 at 8:56pm \| IP Logged

Searching eBay for the DJ promo CD single with the short edit on it, I came across this Mexican promo 45 that claims to have a run time of 3:30!

DARYL HALL - DREAMTIME - MEXICAN PROMO SINGLE 7"

I realize if this actually is a 3 & 1/2 minute edit, it's outside of the scope of the database... still, I'd be very curious if anybody has ever come across this short of an edit.

(Tips for finding the CD single on eBay would be greatly appreciated, too... I found one CD single, & it only had the album length on it! {perhaps a bootleg?})

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EdisonLite
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Posted: 28 February 2010 at 9:03pm \| IP Logged

IIRC, my CD single has the (short) album length listed, but is actually the (long) single length. I'd have to double check that.

So the one you found on ebay may have very well been exactly what you were looking for. I don't think I've ever seen a CD single that was actually the short album length.

Edited by EdisonLite on 28 February 2010 at 9:04pm

NightAire
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Posted: 28 February 2010 at 11:12pm \| IP Logged

Now that you mention it, EdisonLite, reading back through this thread it looks like the 4:02 edit / mix has never made it to CD. FRUSTRATING!

I did find a sealed UK pressing which allegedly includes the 5:00 version on one side, and Let It Out and the 4:02 version of Dreamtime on the other. They want $18 for it.

Now I just have to decide how warped I think a record shrink-wrapped for 24 years would be. :)

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bwolfe
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Posted: 01 March 2010 at 10:17am \| IP Logged

Whatever you call them the cassette single was one of the worst formats of all time.
Many were done on poor quality tape and felt like throwaways.
All tape breaks down through time no matter how carefully you store it.
The industry could have saved the single, before downloads, if they would have done a CD single early enough.

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Roscoe
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Posted: 01 March 2010 at 10:48am \| IP Logged

bwolfe wrote:

The industry could have saved the single, before downloads, if they would have done a CD single early enough.

Ah, but the industry wasn't one bit interested in saving the single. To the contrary, they appeared to do everything possible to kill it. They just couldn't resist the higher margins entailed by forcing consumers to buy an entire CD and consequently phased out singles in any format as a mass market item. And the strategy worked for about a decade (roughly 1989-1999).

Of course, when file-sharing came onto the scene, everything changed and consumers got their revenge. While I believe file-sharing was inevitable, it may not have become such an industry-killing force had the labels been offering economically priced CD singles. I can't remember how much CD3 singles retailed for in the late 80s, but I do remember CD5 singles having unreasonable price tags ($5).

Hykker
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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 6:50am \| IP Logged

bwolfe wrote:

Whatever you call them the cassette single was one of the worst formats of all time.
Many were done on poor quality tape and felt like throwaways.

I'm in complete agreement with you on cassette singles. El-cheapo cassettes, poor sound quality and a general PITA to use. Frankly, it baffles me that they were the "preferred" format from '87 on.
BTW, I have a couple dozen just sitting in a box that have been dubbed to digital media if anyone wants them.

bwolfe wrote:

The industry could have saved the single, before downloads, if they would have done a CD single early enough.

Roscoe wrote:

Of course, when file-sharing came onto the scene, everything changed and consumers got their revenge. While I believe file-sharing was inevitable, it may not have become such an industry-killing force had the labels been offering economically priced CD singles. I can't remember how much CD3 singles retailed for in the late 80s, but I do remember CD5 singles having unreasonable price tags ($5).

I'm not sure that CD3 (or CD singles in general) was the answer either. for one thing they were not issued for very many songs nor were the ones that existed easy to find, and secondly a lot of CD players at the time wouldn't play them. I never saw enough of them to get an idea of price.

While I agree with Roscoe's comments about the music industry wanting to kill singles, but that goes back to the 70s at least. Singles have pretty much always been a loss leader for the labels. Consumer preferences also greatly contributed to the demise of singles. Let's face it, for non music geeks, singles were a PITA. Much easier to just let an album (in whatever format) play thru. MP3s (and downloadable music files in general) showed there was a demand for single songs as long as they were convenient to play (audio quality of 128k mp3s notwithstanding)...first with Napster and other peer-to-peer networks and finally with legitimate downloads.

I'm of the opinion that singles died off to a great degree because to most music fans, they really weren't very convenient or portable.

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Posted: 03 March 2010 at 2:21pm \| IP Logged

I've been reading some terrific responses to what I said a few days ago. I didn't realize that the single's demise goes as far back as the 70s.
I forgot about the 5 dollar price tag for a CD3.
Working in radio for that past 25 years I've seen so much change, but I feel that the industry was slow to respond to technology.
They could have found ways to make money through technology. I know that you can't stop people from sharing and stealing music on the web, but there could have been a window of opportunity for the labels.
That being said I'm not naive enough to think that it would always stay the same.
I was there when there was endless service, concert tix and product giveaways.
Maybe too many product giveaways.
I miss those days...

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NightAire
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Posted: 06 November 2010 at 12:20am \| IP Logged

aaronk wrote:

I'd also like to add that the (4:02) version is not simply an edit of the LP or 45 version. There's a mix difference on the short promo version near the end of the song.

Does this mean that even having the 5:01 DJ copy (thank you, you know how you are) won't allow you to create the short DJ edit, or are you simply saying the short DJ edit can't be made from the album version?

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