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jimct
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| Posted: 14 March 2007 at 6:24pm | IP Logged
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My commercial 45, which is mono, has a listed time of (3:02), but actually runs two seconds longer, timing in at (3:04). I would not normally report only a 2-second time difference, but since the VAST majority of database CDs show run times for this between (2:57) and (3:00), I thought I would. Also, since it was a #1 hit, I thought it might be of above-average interest to those on the Board, so I ended up choosing to note it here anyway. I'd be happy to shoot out a dub of my 45, for anyone willing and skilled enough to compare/contrast it against the shorter database CD versions.
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sriv94
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One thing I'd like to know is the difference between the soundtrack version and the single version (it would appear the difference isn't in the running times).
And are the stereo versions not labeled as "soundtrack versions" or "alternate takes" the correct single version, given what Jim has just posted (noting his 45 is mono and runs a couple seconds longer)? (Which may be what Jim is trying to imply if we were to compare the two versions.)
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jimct
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| Posted: 15 March 2007 at 2:28am | IP Logged
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Doug, the song was completely re-recorded for single release, and the hit 45 version is an entirely different take from the soundtrack version. The two versions aren't really all that similar, and it is extremely easy to differentiate between the two. I was indeed hoping to inquire as to any possible differences between current stereo database CD appearances that purport to be the "45 version", and my mono (3:04) commercial 45 recording.
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Todd Ireland
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Just thought I'd bump this thread back up to the front of the pack since Jim's commercial 45 run time info for B.J. Thomas' "Raindrops Keep Fallin' on My Head" was never incorporated in the database. Since CD run times of the hit version range from 2:56-3:01, the actual 45 run time of 3:04 takes on some added significance here.
Edited by Todd Ireland on 07 February 2009 at 9:15am
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aaronk
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| Posted: 21 August 2012 at 9:39am | IP Logged
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sriv94 wrote:
| One thing I'd like to know is the difference between the soundtrack version and the single version (it would appear the difference isn't in the running times). |
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Jim is completely correct about this. The 45 version has the opening line "Raindrops are falling on my head" where on the soundtrack version he sings "Raindrops keep falling on my head."
Also, the mono version sounds like a fold-down of the stereo version (not the soundtrack version) to my ears; however, the copy I used from Time Life's "Singers & Songwriters" starts off too slow (by about 2%) and then gradually gains speed until the first vocal begins. The rest of the song sounds like the speed is constant.
Edited by aaronk on 21 August 2012 at 9:39am
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Bill Cahill
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There are three versions of this song, the sountrack version, the stereo hit version, and the mono hit version. The stereo hit version sounds to me exactly like the mono single version until you get to the truphet ending at the end of the song. If you listen to the stereo version you'll hear some slight errors in the truphet playing. You don't hear those errors on the mono 45. The keyboard in that section is slightly different there too so they probably re-did a couple of bars at the ending to make the trumphet "perfect" for the 45.
Anyone want to guess what's on the Complete Scepter Singles CD?
I hear the slight trumphet errors, so apparently it's the stereo version folded down to mono.
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Indy500
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Are any other of the mono versions listed correct?
Edited by Indy500 on 30 September 2012 at 7:40pm
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aaronk
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| Posted: 01 October 2012 at 1:44am | IP Logged
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Bill Cahill wrote:
Anyone want to guess what's on the Complete Scepter
Singles CD?
I hear the slight trumphet errors, so apparently it's the stereo version folded
down to mono. |
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Bill, that would explain why I thought the mono version was just a fold down.
Looks like they really goofed on this disc.
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davidclark
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| Posted: 01 October 2012 at 3:33am | IP Logged
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Hi Jim,
I hope the offer you made in 2007 to shoot out a 45 dub is still good! WIth
the recent posting of the trumpet being different at the end, combined with
the wildly different timings and OST vs. alternate versions, it time to get to
the bottom of this (as you point out) #1 tune.
thanks.
david
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Bill Cahill
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| Posted: 01 October 2012 at 5:31pm | IP Logged
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For those investigating, if you take either the Real Gone Complete Scepter Singles Collection or the Rhino Greatest Hits and compare it to a stock copy of Raindrops Keep Fallin On My Head, you should hear the difference at the end of the song. I'm not comparing to the trumphet break in the middle of the song but the trumphet ending, right after B. J. Thomas stops singing. The CDs mentioned above do not match the 45,as the trumphet and keyboards are slightly different on the first two bars of the trumphet led ending. The 45 is slightly softer on the trumphet too (on those two bars).
Edited by Bill Cahill on 01 October 2012 at 5:37pm
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Bill Cahill
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| Posted: 01 October 2012 at 5:36pm | IP Logged
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As far as what versions ARE the 45 mix, I can verify that "Eyes of A New York Woman" is the 45 mix, it is missing the sitar heard during the first verse on the stereo mix and features the edit at the end. "I Just Can't Help Believing" sounds like the 45, "Hooked on a Feeling" sounds like it's the 45 mix, and I have yet to determine any difference on "Everybody's Out Of Town"
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Santi Paradoa
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| Posted: 01 October 2012 at 5:36pm | IP Logged
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Does this mean the correct mono 45 mix (of Raindrops) has yet to
appear on CD?
Edited by Santi Paradoa on 01 October 2012 at 5:41pm
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aaronk
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| Posted: 08 December 2012 at 10:30pm | IP Logged
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The database has not yet been updated to reflect Bill's discovery about the trumpet ending being different. Are any of the mono versions on CD correct?
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Pat Downey
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The database has now been updated to reflect the LP vs 45 versions of this song. Oddly enough all of the mono appearances are simply the stereo version bridged to mono. Two cd's have a stereo 45 version of this song: Rhino 70752 Greatest Hits (2nd pressing) and GNP Crescendo 2256 #1 Hits 1970 - 1974 and both run slower than the 45.
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MMathews
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Hi guys,
A cool tidbit of info i discovered, about these various
versions.
I had a CD out today as i wanted to update my PC with a
better master of it, but i then read in DB that on this
disc it's the "alternate take". All the opening lines
sounded same to me, so i dug further.
I have many cd's with the "LP version" so i pulled that
one too.
Awhile ago, i comparing the mono 45 dub with the LP
version, i confirmed the info stated above, it's the same
take until the trumpet "coda" .. it seemed that was
tacked on from another take.
Hmmmm. Another take. Then i thought, hey, knowing how
tape reels get poorly labeled... notes are often
incomplete, or worse, handwriting illegible. I figured
there may be a reason this alternate take appeared in the
first place. It may have been labeled as being used for
the 45 version.
Sho'nuff.. the first 1:09 is in fact the same as the
45/LP versions. Then it splices to a another take - the
"wrong" take. But, then at 2:29, the trumpet ending - it
becomes the 45 take! So, this alternate was used only
for it's ending.
What i think happened here is someone was attempting to
reconstruct the hit take, but instead of checking by ear,
too too much of the other take and spliced it in the
middle of the song, instead of just the ending.
NOW - this is useful info, even tho on 2 cd's, as Pat
points out, someone did correctly splice the ending on to
create the stereo 45. BUT, they didn't correct the
pitch, so they are running way too slow, and also fade 5
secs too soon, even more too soon if you speed them up.
So the good news is, with an Audio editor, one can create
the correct 45 version by using any of the "LP Version"
sources and placing the "alt take" trumpet ending on to
it. And, in my synch i confirmed that the alt. take has
the full length of the trumpet ending, and then some, so
you can make the single correct pitch and length.
One note tho; when you take on the trumpet ending, on the
mono there is a half-second more silence after the word
"me" before the trumpet coda starts, so you need to
correct for that when doing your new edit.
Now, as for mono vs. stereo. I carefully compared them
side by side, i could hear little or no difference in any
of the elements, not even reverb - so once you create the
stereo 45, one can simply fold that result to mono and
with some EQ adjustment, this should match the true mono
mix as well.
Hope this helps!!
MM
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aaronk
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| Posted: 03 January 2013 at 8:42pm | IP Logged
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Outstanding detective work, Mark! I'm glad it's possible to get the
correct hit version using existing cd sources.
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 03 January 2013 at 9:37pm | IP Logged
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MMathews wrote:
Now, as for mono vs. stereo. I carefully compared them
side by side, i could hear little or no difference in any
of the elements, not even reverb - so once you create the
stereo 45, one can simply fold that result to mono and
with some EQ adjustment, this should match the true mono
mix as well.
Hope this helps!!
MM |
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Nice work, Mark! Yeah, several years ago I posted that I
thought the mono single was just a fold-down of the
stereo version, but when the trumpet difference was
discovered, I thought I must be wrong. Glad to see you
got it ironed out.
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MMathews
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| Posted: 05 January 2013 at 10:11pm | IP Logged
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Just a little added info. I'm told for #1 hits we can't
have tooo much info. So here goes.
I also wondered how the "O.S.T. Butch Cassidy.." Version
fits in with these others, so i synched that too. As
noted above, the first verse is an alternate take. But,
then at about 1:06, the start of the 2nd verse, it
becomes the "LP Version" and stays that all the way to
end, including the trumpet ending.
Funny thing is, the sound track is an alternate take in
the *first* verse, and the "alternate take" version is
such for all vocals *after* the first verse...i'm
thinking we should get these 2 versions together for
coffee. :-)
I did get around t re-creating the true 45, thanks to Ed
for providing a reliable 45 dub. I will note that, if
you take this on and want it to be truly accurate, you
will need to perform 3 pitch changes. This is one of
those where the pitch in the 45 is not constant.
compared the LP version, the first verse is pitched up
about 3% (in my software, that means 3% of one semitone).
Then the 2nd verse is pitch up anadditional5%.
Then the 3rd verse is pitched up an addition 1% more.
Finally, the trumpet coda, once taken from the "alternate
take" you'll need to pitch up 12% faster than the CD.
since all cd's with that version run the same time, i'll
assume they all are the same speed.
And finally, since Ed's 45 was so clean, i was able to
carefully a/b for EQ and such... once you fold the stereo
version to mono, a few minor EQ tweaks and just a touch
of limiting, will give you the mono mix. They did NOT
compress the 45 to death.
To my ear there was no after-production or mixing done to
his vocals or any elements. Any reverb was done live to
tape so it's the same in all versions.
Ok there ya have it - detective work done.
MM
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crapfromthepast
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There seem to be four versions of this song:- Soundtrack version, runs 2:57, first turned up on CD on Music From Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid (A&M CD 3159, released on CD in 1987 according to Discogs)
- LP version, runs 2:59, likely first turned up on CD on first pressing of Greatest Hits (Rhino 70752, released 1990)
- 45 version, runs 3:04, seems to exist on CD only on later pressing of Greatest Hits (Rhino 70752, released 1990), note that mono 45 version is a fold-down of stereo 45 version
- Previously unreleased edit, runs 3:14, seems to have originated on various artist compilation Rhythm Of The Rain (Varèse Vintage VSD-5534, released 1994)
After much head-scratching, I figured out that there are two different takes for every part of the song. Maybe recorded in two complete takes, start-to-finish? Who knows?
The song has three distinct sections. The four versions in existence are just different combinations of the two takes, for the three distinct sections of the song. I'll break this down by section, which seems to be the simplest way to pick this apart.
Beginning to end of first piano break before second verse
First line: "Raindrops keep fallin'..."- Soundtrack version (0:00-1:06)
First line: "Raindrops are fallin'..."- LP version (0:00-1:09)
- 45 version (0:00-1:09)
- Previously unreleased edit (0:00-1:09)
Second verse to end of long note before trumpet outro
First syllable: "uh-Rain..."- Soundtrack version (1:06-2:23)
- LP version (1:09-2:26)
- 45 version (1:09-2:26)
First syllable: "Rain..."- Previously unreleased edit (1:09-2:29)
Trumpet outro
Second and third notes seem to be doubled up or some bleed-through- Soundtrack version (2:23-2:56)
- LP version (2:26-3:00)
No doubling up or bleed-through in opening notes- 45 version (2:26-3:05)
- Previously unreleased edit (2:29-3:14)
Edited by crapfromthepast on 31 August 2020 at 3:00pm
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LunarLaugh
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crapfromthepast wrote:
There seem to be four versions
of this song:- Soundtrack version, runs 2:57,
first turned up on CD on Music From Butch Cassidy
And The Sundance Kid (A&M CD 3159, released on CD
in 1987 according to Discogs) - LP version, runs
2:59, likely first turned up on CD on first pressing of
Greatest Hits (Rhino 70752, released 1990)
- 45 version, runs 3:04, seems to exist on CD only on
later pressing of Greatest Hits (Rhino 70752,
released 1990), note that mono 45 version is a fold-
down of stereo 45 version - Previously unreleased
edit, runs 3:14, seems to have originated on various
artist compilation Rhythm Of The Rain (Varèse
Vintage VSD-5534, released 1994)
After much
head-scratching, I figured out that there are two
different takes for every part of the song. Maybe
recorded in two complete takes, start-to-finish? Who
knows? |
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I have it from a reliable source that Bill Inglot
digitally remixed "Raindrops..." in stereo to match the
mono 45 specifically for the later pressing of the
Rhino "Greatest Hits". The story relayed to me is that
Bill and Ken Perry happened to be doing mastering at
A&M when the staff tape librarian pulled the original 8
track multitrack for them to work from. Therefore, I'm
not so sure the mono 45 could be a fold down of this
stereo mix and I think it's more likely that the mono
is an actual dedicated mix.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: B.J. Thomas- "Raindrops Keep Fallin’..."
