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aaronk
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80smusicfreak wrote:
My point to all this: If the song was a hit from that time period - as all Guns n' Roses tunes were - and you're going by what is heard on either the vinyl 45 or CD single, you may be fooling yourself, not to mention keeping Pat's database from being completely accurate...
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The beauty of Pat's database and this message board is that everyone can have his/her own idea of what the *hit* version is. For me, it's always been the version that is/was heard widespread on the airwaves. I've always long considered the DJ versions (which in many cases were the same as the commercial single versions) the "hit" versions. Personally, I think a song can only become a bonafide hit after it receives widespread airplay, via the radio, video, or some other form of promotion.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 05 May 2008 at 9:52pm | IP Logged
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80smusicfreak wrote:
TimNeely wrote:
| For example, Guns N' Roses' 45s were released on 45 as they appeared on the albums -- even the almost 9-minute-long "November Rain." |
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Perhaps, but when it comes to determining the true "hit single" versions, I'm wondering just how relevant is what actually appeared on the vinyl 45s here??? Not to stray too far off topic, but I've been meaning to bring up this issue for quite some time now, and this seems like as good an opportunity as any... :-)
Let's not forget, by the time Guns n' Roses first hit the singles charts in June of '88, we Americans had a choice of singles formats in retail stores: vinyl 45 or cassette single. And guess what??? We Yanks chose the cassette single - by then, it was already king! That means the cassette version of EVERY commercial Guns n' Roses single released from 1988-94 outsold its vinyl (or later, CD) counterpart(s). Therefore, why are we considering the "45 versions" (in the literal sense) to be the "official" versions here, especially when as a promotional/sales gimmick, record labels often put different edits/mixes of the same hit song on different formats??? (And quite a number of examples by other artists have already been exposed here on Pat's board!) Who knows, maybe the band had something in their contract that said only the singles on vinyl couldn't be edited/remixed ("Sweet Child o' Mine" notwithstanding)??? I'm not saying that the lengths/versions found on any of the cassette singles from Guns n' Roses do, in fact, differ from the vinyl 45s - I honestly don't know, but it's a REAL possibility there's an example or two - but logically, shouldn't the "cassette single" versions be considered the official "hit single" versions in this group's case??? Yet for whatever reason, when it comes to post-1987 hits, the "singles purists" here always seem to put all the weight on what appeared on either the vinyl 45s or CD singles, even though the cassette was the dominant singles format in the U.S. from 1988-97 (a full ten years!). Only when a hit from that decade was issued exclusively on cassette single does the tape format seem to matter to folks around here - hmmm...
My point to all this: If the song was a hit from that time period - as all Guns n' Roses tunes were - and you're going by what is heard on either the vinyl 45 or CD single, you may be fooling yourself, not to mention keeping Pat's database from being completely accurate...
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Greg:
According to Joel Whitburn in his Top Pop Singles 1955-1999 book, the cassette single was recognized as the standard configuration on the Billboard Hot 100 chart from 1990 to December 5, 1998. As a result, there are a number of folks on this board like edtop40 and myself who've gone to great lengths to post pertinent cassette single info when necessary. Ed in particular regularly makes it a point to recognize the cassette single as the undisputed single version for Top 40 hits during this time period. And when different versions of a particular Top 40 hit exist from one physical single configuration to another, Pat duly updates all related info in the database and allows the reader to decide for himself which format should be considered the "true" single version. So unless I'm missing something, I honestly don't see anybody doing anything here to prevent the database from being anything less than completely accurate.
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Hykker
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| Posted: 06 May 2008 at 7:00am | IP Logged
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80smusicfreak wrote:
Let's not forget, by the time Guns n' Roses first hit the singles charts in June of '88, we Americans had a choice of singles formats in retail stores: vinyl 45 or cassette single. And guess what??? We Yanks chose the cassette single - by then, it was already king! |
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I wouldn't go so far as to say we "chose" the cassette single as much as I'd say it was imposed on us. For any number of reasons, often the cassette single was all that was available, either because the retailer chose not to carry 45s/CD singles or because the labels chose not to issue them. For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would choose to sonically & mechanically inferior cassette singles if other choices were available. Maybe those of you who lived in or near a major city with numerous record stores had a choice, but those of us who lived in smaller towns/cities didn't have many options.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 06 May 2008 at 12:14pm | IP Logged
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I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I regard the "hit" version as being the version that got all the airplay that made it a hit in the first place, regardless of what format it appeared on or even if it was commercially available at all.
An example off the top of my head -
Milli Vanilli's "All Or Nothing": The only version I ever heard (or played) on the radio was the LP version, which was even included on their promo sampler "Hits That Shook The World". There was no 45 for the song, and the cassette single had a drastic remix on it, which got little or no airplay back then.
In general, unless there's a huge difference between album and single versions, I tend to lean toward using the LP versions until around 1984, and the 45s from around 1984 onward. There's no hard, fast line in the sand, but around '84, there were a lot of single-only remixes, like "The Reflex", "Adult Education", "It's My Life", "She Bop", and a few others. Before '84, it was primarily edits for the 45, rather than remixes.
So I'll use the full LP versions of "Paradise By The Dashboard Light", Diesel's "Sausalito Summernight", Aldo Nova's "Fantasy", Saga's "On The Loose", and so forth, because that's what got played back then.
I'll also use the 45 edits of "Slow Ride", "My Sharona", "My Life", and some other classic rock songs that got substantial airplay in their shortened forms on pop radio.
That's not to trivialize the intent of this forum, or of those who prefer single versions. I understand that the cassette single was the single format adopted by Billboard and used for the Hot 100 chart methodology, and I completely respect that many collectors seek out the version on those cassette singles. But when I'm compiling my own pop library for radio and mobile DJ work, I'll use the version that most would readily recognize, rather than what they could buy back then.
There's plenty of overlap between the library "hit" compiling that I'm doing and those hunting for the single versions, and there's plenty to be learned in the process and shared with the forum...
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 06 May 2008 at 1:13pm | IP Logged
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Hykker wrote:
| For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would choose to sonically & mechanically inferior cassette singles if other choices were available. Maybe those of you who lived in or near a major city with numerous record stores had a choice, but those of us who lived in smaller towns/cities didn't have many options. |
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Speaking for myself, I opted for cassette singles over vinyl 45s because I liked the portability of the cassette single. Unlike a 45, I could play a cassette on my car stereo and on my Sony "Walkman".
crapfromthepast wrote:
I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I regard the "hit" version as being the version that got all the airplay that made it a hit in the first place, regardless of what format it appeared on or even if it was commercially available at all.
An example off the top of my head -
Milli Vanilli's "All Or Nothing": The only version I ever heard (or played) on the radio was the LP version, which was even included on their promo sampler "Hits That Shook The World". There was no 45 for the song, and the cassette single had a drastic remix on it, which got little or no airplay back then. |
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Yes... Back in the early '90s in particular, I hated how cassette singles would often feature a drastically different version of a song than what was played on the radio!
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eriejwg
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Speaking as one who actually worked on the radio and played the promo versions, those are the versions I've been trying to acquire.
Luckily, for the last 15 years, I've have subscription services like RPM and now JonesTM to get the 'hit' versions.
As a mobile dj, I've owned it all over the years. Vinyl, which I unfortunately sold, then cassette singles, CD's and now, for the last 5 years, digital.
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crapfromthepast
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eriejwg wrote:
| Luckily, for the last 15 years, I've have subscription services like RPM and now JonesTM to get the 'hit' versions. |
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Amen to those!
I used Hot Hits from 1991-1996, Spotlight On Hits from 1991-1996, and Top Hits USA/RPM's weekly service since 1996, with recurrents going back to 1992. I also have a full run of in-store samplers called In Play, which ran around 1990-1991, and some late '80s/early '90s promo samplers from Schwartz Brothers.
Those CDs make up around 95% of my '90s library, and nearly 100% of my '00s stuff!
Back then, I was able to apply to record pools as a jukebox operator (since my mobile DJ boss actually had a jukebox), and I used Record Source International for 45s from around 1990-1993 until they folded.
After the fact, I've been able to get a nice pile of other samplers, like Hitmakers, Network 40, and the TM Century discs. All have their merits. Don't have any Promo Only CDs, although I've worked with people who swear by them.
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 06 May 2008 at 3:51pm | IP Logged
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The very first commercial radio station I worked at from 1977-1979 got their current music from Record Source International. Most of the time, for the major hits on 45, we'd hit the local G.C. Murphy or Fisher's Big Wheel, at that time, and buy them there.
Edited by eriejwg on 06 May 2008 at 3:52pm
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 07 May 2008 at 8:28am | IP Logged
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Wow, your post just made my day, John! I can immediately tell someone is from around the greater Pittsburgh area when I hear the mere mention of G.C. Murphy and Fisher's Big Wheel. Sadly, these department stores have been out of business for a number of years now, but as a kid I used to beg my parents to drive me to these places so I could buy comic books and toys. I had no idea G.C. Murphy and Fisher's Big Wheel sold 45s, but of course my interest in collecting Top 40 music didn't start developing until I got a little older!
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aaronk
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| Posted: 07 May 2008 at 12:15pm | IP Logged
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Man! I started collecting 45s at a very young age (about 4), and I used to have my parents drive me to Fisher's Big Wheel to buy 45s!
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Yah Shure
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At the end of my junior year in college, my folks moved to a townhouse in Bloomington, MN. The nearby strip mall had three (woo,hoo!) record dealers. The Red Owl Family Center had the cheapest current 45s, and G.C. Murphy had a more more limited but slightly cheaper selection of oldies than at Musicland, where I'd special order the obscure new singles. That was a great summer!
Edited by Yah Shure on 20 November 2008 at 10:26pm
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Gary
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Also, who remembers the Almor Playtime Co. out of Amsterdam, NY? They supplied the Record Giant stores which they owned and local stores,including Ben Franklin Variety stores,that wanted to sell 45's and LP's. I remember growing up in a small town of 800 people, and our local general store sold 45's by Almor Playtime. They would have their own Top 40 list and in the early 80's they would never sell any Motown songs for some reason or another. Sometimes some very obscure stuff got put in positions #35-#40, but you could by most of the hits there. I recall bying Bill Burnette's "Oh Susan" which they seemed to want to promote and they listed it at #21. I kept listening to American Top 40 in hopes that I could hear that song debut, but it never did! They changed the Top 40 list every 2-3 weeks. In Ben Franklin stores, the 45's were shrinked wrapped in cardboard about 1 foot tall, labeled Tops in the Pops.
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crapfromthepast
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Yah Shure wrote:
| Bloomington, MN. The nearby strip mall had three (woo,hoo!) record dealers. |
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Small world - I live in Richfield, MN, about 100 feet from Bloomington. As you might have guessed, things have changed a bit. The only record/CD dealer in Bloomington is Discland, and that probably wasn't around back then. There was a small place in a strip mall in Bloomington called Aardvark Records until about 6 or 7 years ago, but they moved way across town and I haven't been back since.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 08 May 2008 at 10:05am | IP Logged
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Ron, things changed in short order at Valley West after 1972. G.C. Murphy closed, Red Owl dropped records altogether (it's a Cub Foods now) and Musicland was gone a few years later. By then I had the folks at the Musicland on 7th Street in downtown Minneapolis trained to the point where they'd have a stack of special order blanks up on the counter by the time I'd gotten there from the front door. :) No, I don't think Discland was around back then. But Bud's Music Center in Hopkins - where I first bought 45s in the '50s - is still alive and well.
Never shopped at Aardvark, but got some goodies at Roadrunner and Let It Be back when I was still a Radio K listener. The St. Paul Cheapo is only a half-mile walk away, and I stopped in there last week for the first time in ages to pick up a few used LPs to fill in the gaps in my WMMR/U of M collection.
And I really *should* listen to your show more often on KFAI. [Hangs head in shame]
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jimct
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| Posted: 08 May 2008 at 11:30am | IP Logged
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Gary wrote:
| ...our local general store sold 45's by Almor Playtime. They would have their own Top 40 list and in the early 80's they would never sell any Motown songs for some reason or another. Sometimes some very obscure stuff got put in positions #35-#40, but you could by most of the hits there. I recall bying Bill Burnette's "Oh Susan" which they seemed to want to promote and they listed it at #21....In Ben Franklin stores, the 45's were shrinked wrapped in cardboard about 1 foot tall... |
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To explain stores having "their own Top 40 list", there was a method to the madness. My local Macy's had that arrangement. Back then, big dept. store retailers would want to carry current 45s/LPs, but didn't want to go to all the time/effort to research/order the "hot sellers." So, they'd hire a regional record distribution company to run the whole thing for them. Certain distriutors had closer/better relationships with certain other record labels, than they did with others. To me, it was always quite obvious what labels had the best "relationships"; as Gary pointed out, the lower reaches of these "distributor charts" were always overstuffed with current "non-hits" from these labels (like Bill Burnette), guaranteeing they would be "available for purchase at retail", often despite absolutely NO radio airplay/national chart action whatsoever! (I remember Roulette always having a mega-strong presence on these Macy's lists, for example.) It was always a big deal to labels to get their 45s stocked in stores, no matter what. For example, Gary took a chance, and ended up buying that Bill Burnette 45, probably without ever even hearing it first! If the song didn't appear on their bogus "chart", that never would've happened.) On the other hand, other labels would be either totally or mostly ignored (like Motown, for example, as Gary earlier cited), even if massive current hits appeared on these labels. It was ALL about business/profit/relationships. The distributors' only fear was that if TOO many customers contacted store management, saying, "Hey, I can't find my favorite song, "______" (on Motown, let's say.) "I wanna buy it!" The distributors couldn't have it obviously appear that they weren't doing their job fairly, by "fixing the chart/ballot box", so they would eventually HAVE to stock these "hostile label" huge hits, but only to avoid the risk of getting "canned" by the retailer, and only if the song was an absolute SMASH. They'd chart JUST enough of these "hostile" label hits to maintain their "gig" at the store. This was why ALL big distributors did their own "charts", and all with many dubious songs on there; it was the primary way for them to manipulate the situation to their own profit benefit. If they'd used a local station's chart, they couldn't "help their label friends, and punish their label enemies", so it was almost never done that way, within these "distributor-run, big-retail record departments." Same thing with the 12" cardboard, shrink-wrapped 45s. That was another major distributor's way of stocking 45s to big department stores (my local Bradlees did it this way). They still offered a printed "chart" of their own doing, but they had "X" amount of "pegboard slots" available for current 45s, and they would have 25 copies of each song "hung up", for easy viewing, using a single hole on top of the cardboard. Because this setup was so easy to eyeball, looking at their "charts" wasn't as essential here. Same deal, though - some of the bigger hits were totally missing, while some "mega-stiffs", that I'd never heard of, were ALWAYS showing up on the pegboard, being offered up for purchase from the "favored labels". Obviously, these "favored labels" would vary, from one distributor to the next. These many buying options were key for many of us as kids, because we obviously couldn't get around as easily back then, didn't have a lot of money, and were pretty dependant on "wherever/whenever Mom and/or Dad were going to the local (fill in the blank) department store." What helped me a lot was the fact that one of our larger, local, Mom-and-Pop music chains would "run" the record departments of other small, Mom-And-Pop local businesses, who wanted to increase their store traffic by having a small music department. Same setup as the big distibutors had with big retailers, but on a MUCH smaller scale. For example, I knew that my local "City TV" store, which was right next to the place where I had my first, part-time job, had this arrangement. This helped me GREATLY, back in the early 70's, to buy my "survey debut songs" in a timely fashion. Lucky for me, they even stocked copies of our local station's surveys, and they had ALL of its Top 30 songs in stock, with none of that "big distributor, selective charting" garbage. My other "main 45 buying source" was my local drug store/pharmacy. They had the exact same set-up as that "City TV" did, again, kept current by my local Mom and Pop music chain, and again, using local station's surveys. However, they kept their 45s under lock and key, in a display with a clear plastic top, and you had to go to the counter and ask the clerk to "open/remove" the wanted 45s for you. (And I always thought I had an honest face!) The use of a local radio station chart, vs. "their own chart" was always how I could separate the "good" 45 selection places from the "iffy" 45 selection places. Thanks for all the great memories, guys!
Edited by jimct on 08 May 2008 at 11:37am
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Paul Haney
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These recent posts have brought back some fond memories for me as well. Me & my older brother would ride our bikes up to the local Target store every Saturday to buy what few 45s we could afford. They had their stock arranged to match the KDWB weekly radio surveys. My first ever purchase in 1974 was "Earache My Eye" by Cheech & Chong (hey, I was only 8 at the time and that "song" was the height of hilarity)! First ever album purchase came the next year with One Of These Nights by the Eagles. The greatest day at Target came in the summer of 1978 when they had dozens of boxes of "cut-out" albums for just a buck apiece! I must've bought at least 10-20 albums over those next few weeks until everything was sold.
Once I could drive me and my collector buddies would hit just about every record store in the Twin Cities metro area. Some I remember are Oarfolkjokeopus (great name) and the little "auxiliary" 45 shop in the nearby basement, Garage D'or, Hymie's, Wax Museum, Cheapo and the name of another I can't remember...the owner was a real prick and we just referred to his shop as "The Bald Jerk's" shop, but he sure had some great stuff (and karma got my hairline eventually). We also hit the Salvation Army stores, the best of which was in a really rough neighborhood in South Minneapolis (lots of homeless people, drug dealers and hookers, really opened up my naive suburban 16 year-old eyes)!
Went to college in Winona, Minnesota, where the local video arcade had tons of recent hits pulled off of jukeboxes for just a quarter apiece, my collection really took off there.
Can't imagine growing up in today's environment of sterile "mega-stores" and iTunes. Some of my best times were scouring those local record shops and meeting some of the most "interesting" characters I've ever met.
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crapfromthepast
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Interesting discussion of both Minneapolis (surprising that so many of us have connections there!) and those old music surveys.
If you'd like to see a nice sample of these surveys from the New York City area from 1978-1986, I've got a few hundred posted here.
Mine are from "Alpha Distribution Corp" from NYC, and they serviced Caldor, Bradlees, Korvettes, Two Guys, and a few other department stores that aren't around anymore. The phrase "Please request by number" still makes me smile!
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 08 May 2008 at 2:49pm | IP Logged
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My first experiences purchasing 45's were in 1971, when I was 12. First 45 I bought was "Feelin' Alright" by Grand Funk Railroad. Later, "It Don't Come Easy" and "Sweet And Innocent."
The store where I had carte blanche was called Mason's Dept. Store and purchased those records, as my late Grandfather was store manager there. Mason's was part of a retail chain, who's parent company was M.H. Fishman. He met my late Grandmother at the store in Massena, NY. I have a 12" broadcast recording from 1935, in which he appears briefly.
They moved all over New England, my Mom was born in Maine, I, in Boston, then eventually after my parents divorce to Erie in 1959, my Mom and I arrived here in 1960.
I also recall buying 45s at Murphy's and Grant City (W.T. Grant's.)
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Yah Shure
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Paul, I often bought import LPs at Discount Records in Dinkytown, but was always disappointed that no record stores near the "U" carried singles. One day on my way out the door at Discount, I spotted a KDWB 6+30 survey tacked to the wall. After I glanced around and didn't see a stash of them anywhere, I asked the clerk why it was on the wall. "That's for the 45s for the kids." Great. They'd been selling 45s all along! You ordered them by their chart number, and they kept them hidden away behind the counter. Methinks they were years ahead of the labels in not wanting to cannibalize a potential album sale on account of a lowly 45. :)
Was it the Record Collectors Co-op that you think was the "auxilliary shop" near Oarfolk?
There was one real treasure in town: Don Leary's in St. Anthony. Don had been an independent dealer for decades, and he had THE BEST inventory of 45s new and old, and often bought directly from the labels. Don was one of those cranky owners who'd yell at you if you took the 45 out of its sleeve in plain view to inspect it. He'd sell promo copies with "certified gold standard" stickers covering the promo markings on the labels. I didn't care, because 75% of what I'd special order at Musicland would come back stamped "not available," and Leary's was my last hope of finding those singles. In 1973, I was glad to find that he had two stock copies of "Sunshine Ship," a WMMR fave by Arthur, Hurley & Gottlieb on Columbia, so I bought one. The last time I stopped in during his going-out-of-business sale around 1986, I found the other copy still sitting there in the bins, so I bought it, too. I'd spend hours there browsing, unable to focus on much of anything beyond an arms-length for some time after leaving the store.
It was while working at Heilicher Brothers (Musicland's owner) that I discovered why so many of those special orders weren't fulfilled. If the 45 was new and on one of the majors with its own distribution (Columbia, Decca/MCA, Capitol) no matter how obscure the record was, they could almost always get it. WEA was hit and miss (mostly miss.) For the independently-distributed labels that Heilicher's themselves distributed (ABC/Dunhill, Motown, Bell/Arista, UA, etc.) their 45 buyer had to purchase each title from the labels first, and the minimum order requirements pretty much ruled out those single copies special-ordered by some Yah(oo.)
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Paul Haney
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Yah Shure, how could I forget about ol' Don Leary! I didn't discover him until about 1983 or so and I was also at his going out of business sale. He was mostly cranky, but for some reason he took a liking to me and he'd let me get first crack at any new 45's he got in each week. If the record came with a picture sleeve he was sure to have it.
I'll never forget one day at Oarfolk I met Peter Buck of R.E.M. I also saw Paul Westerberg of The Replacements there on a few occasions (the owner of Oarfolk was The 'Mats manager). The Record Collector's Co-op (how could i forget THAT name:) was the 45 shop that started in the basement of Oarfolk proper, then moved just around the corner to another little basement shop. Their prices were a little steep, but you could usually haggle with the guy to get a better deal.
Those were some great days.
Edited by Paul Haney on 09 May 2008 at 6:08am
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Boston promo 45 for Don’t Look Back
