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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 22 September 2017 at 1:49pm | IP Logged
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So back to the comparison of the Collectables CD (1993) vs. the file that Musidisc-Universal sent to Mark back in 2010...
My null test reveal that one was a digital source for the other, but there was a static-y artifact down around -24 dB. I haven't encountered this situation often, and attributed it to noise reduction or maybe some compression/limiting.
Nope.
Brian W figured this one out: The file from Musidisc-Universal is taken from an mp3 source! If you start with the version from the Collectables CD (released in 1993), convert it to an mp3 (probably 256 kbps), then convert it back to a lossless file, you get the file from Musidisc-Universal.
You can see from a spectral analysis that the frequencies about 17 kHz are chopped off on the Musidisc-Universal, but are fully intact on the Collectables CD. This would produce exactly what I saw in my null test - static-y artifacts. I've seen this only once before, where I manually created an mp3 file from a lossless source, just to see what artifacts the mp3 conversion causes. So mp3 conversion artifacts weren't really on my radar when I did the null test.
Nice work, Brian!
Unfortunately, Eric's Hard To Find 45s On CD Vol. 12 (2010) was sourced from the mp3-ized file from Musidisc-Universal, and therefore also has the high-frequency cutoff issue. Plus, the intro of the Eric disc has some crazy high-frequency content during the intro, as the result of some very unorthodox processing.
Mark M is aghast at all this, as you might imagine, and will certainly be taking extra care with this track for an upcoming remastering of Hard To Find 45s On CD Vol. 12. Based on Mark's work on the recent Hard To Find discs, I'm confident that he'll make this track sound better than it ever has on CD.
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Santi Paradoa
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| Posted: 22 September 2017 at 6:50pm | IP Logged
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A remastering of that volume is a great idea. Good info once again Ron.
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Santi Paradoa
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MMathews
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| Posted: 22 September 2017 at 7:34pm | IP Logged
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Yes, aghast is an understatement. It never occurred to anyone that a major label would slip an mp3 source at us! And unfortunately the mp3 source was exacerbated by the noise reduction applied to it.
Note: Musidisc in France supplied a lossless tape to Universal, it was Universal that oddly converted to an mp3 then back to a wav before supplying it my former co-engineer. You can hear the lossless, flat master tape on the Collectables CD, which is NOT from vinyl, NO copy has ever been taken from vinyl!
This persistent rumor of it being from vinyl was started by a friend of mine in the industry (who will remain nameless). When he heard the drop-outs in the intro of the first CD, he said "hey those same drop outs were on the record, therefore the CD must be from a record." Sigh, NO, the dropouts originate from the master so of course they were on the record!
And this song may be hissy on the original tape (always was) but you will hear that hiss on the new remaster. Sorry, but you'll have to live without the noise reduction this time. :-)
Thanks again to Brian for discovering this issue, and Ron's excellent research on the other CDs. I'll post here when the remaster becomes available. It takes time to clear all the tracks again.
MM
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 22 September 2017 at 8:51pm | IP Logged
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Remastering some of the out-of-print "Hard to Find 45"
titles is a GREAT idea!
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MMathews
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| Posted: 23 September 2017 at 2:14am | IP Logged
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I should point out some of the much older volumes will
never be re-pressed. Each one may have a different reason.
Sometimes sales, other times a licensing issue. When you
go to re-master a CD, if anyone artist declines the 2nd
time around, you can't renew the package. It'a all aboard,
or nothing.
MM
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 23 September 2017 at 11:06am | IP Logged
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In the event that an artist or licensing issue arises,
could you create new volumes as you go to wait for any
possible licensing or artist issue?
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 26 September 2017 at 12:45pm | IP Logged
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When Rhino re-did the Billboard yearly (particularly 1960s) CDs, there would sometimes be 1 substitute track - I think 1969 or 1968 were examples. Mark, perhaps Eric Records, if considering a remastered reissue of a certain volume, can do that if there's one naysayer in the pack. Of course, if swapping one song constitutes a whole "new" package and is much more costly than just doing a straight reissue (remastered) of a previous volume, then I would totally understand why Eric Records would choose not to do that.
And btw, Mark, you did such a great job of your personal mastered version of "Dancing in the Moonlight" off the Collectables CD - which I must have first heard in the early 2000s - I'm surprised you didn't just go with that exact file instead of requesting this one from Musidisc/Universal. (Or were you not consulting yet with Eric Records at that time?)
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 26 September 2017 at 2:45pm | IP Logged
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Just FYI - it's the Rhino's Billboard Top R&R Hits that has the reissues.
The discs covering the individual years 1960-1969 were originally released in 1988 and 1989. All ten of these volumes were rereleased in 1993 with slightly different track listings, due to licensing requirements.
The rereleases replaced tracks by Elvis, the Four Seasons, Motown, the Byrds, and a few others that don't seem to fit into a pattern.
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MMathews
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| Posted: 27 September 2017 at 7:18pm | IP Logged
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To answer a few Q's ... we don't have the option of swapping a track on the re-issue like Rhino and Time-Life did so many times. For us, the track list has the remain the same.
EdisonLite wrote:
| And btw, Mark, you did such a great job of your personal mastered version of "Dancing in the Moonlight" off the Collectables CD - which I must have first heard in the early 2000s - I'm surprised you didn't just go with that exact file instead of requesting this one from Musidisc/Universal. (Or were you not consulting yet with Eric Records at that time?) |
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I was the co-engineer for Volume 12, but my mastering was rejected. I was outvoted on that one. As I recall, I think they didn't like my EQ because I added a lot of bass, and I left the hiss in. At that time, it was thought "no hiss" was better. We don't have that philosophy anymore, so the remaster will refect that.
MM
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 28 September 2017 at 12:26pm | IP Logged
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Too bad you were outvoted. I thought your cleaning of "Dancing in the Moonlight" was perfect. I never felt there was too much hiss left in; plus, I'm not a overly bass loving guy, and I never felt your remastering was overly bassy.
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KentT
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| Posted: 30 September 2017 at 7:09pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for clearing up the history of this recording. Kept
wondering what was going on. You explained a lot. French
origin, no surprise. And the MP3 fed by Universal
(professionally unacceptable, should have gotten you a
High Res file or a dub tape from the original).
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VWestlife
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| Posted: 27 November 2020 at 10:27pm | IP Logged
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Does the "back in stock by popular demand" version of "Hard to Find 45s on CD, Vol. 12" that Eric Records is now selling on their web site still contain the MP3-sourced copy of "Dancing in the Moonlight", or is it the promised remastered version?
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: King Harvest - Dancing In The Moonlight
