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aaronk
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| Posted: 06 January 2008 at 11:20pm | IP Logged
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Great news, Todd! Thanks for checking it out.
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 07 January 2008 at 2:44am | IP Logged
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<I have "Making Our Dreams Come True" on the Tube Tunes Volume One - The '70s CD (Rhino 71910) and it sounds like Rhino was able to secure a tape source for the mastering on this CD.
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No, Todd, Rhino just used vinyl cleaning software on "Tube Tunes", so much so that they removed any hints of vinyl, but also lost all the high end of the record - whereas they didn't do any vinyl cleaning on "Super Hits of the '70s".
No CD has ever used master tape for this because it's a Private Stock master that was thrown out when they stopped paying their storage facility bill.
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 07 January 2008 at 2:45am | IP Logged
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I noticed that "All Strung Out on You" by John Travolta was mastered from vinyl on Varese Sarabande's "John Travolta Sings" CD. There's a lot of import CDs of Travolta, though. Does anyone know if any CD uses a master tape for this song?
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 11 January 2008 at 10:06pm | IP Logged
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EdisonLite wrote:
<I have "Making Our Dreams Come True" on the Tube Tunes Volume One - The '70s CD (Rhino 71910) and it sounds like Rhino was able to secure a tape source for the mastering on this CD.
>
No, Todd, Rhino just used vinyl cleaning software on "Tube Tunes", so much so that they removed any hints of vinyl, but also lost all the high end of the record - whereas they didn't do any vinyl cleaning on "Super Hits of the '70s".
No CD has ever used master tape for this because it's a Private Stock master that was thrown out when they stopped paying their storage facility bill. |
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When listening to the Tube Tunes disc for the first time after purchasing it in 1995, I notice "Making Our Dreams Come True" didn't have the incessant noise and crackle that plagues the track on the Super Hits of the 70's, Volume 18 CD. Meanwhile, the paper insert tray in back of the Tube Tunes disc states:
"We have taken every effort to obtain the highest quality audio source for each song represented. However, in some cases the best possible sources were television production masters which do not always produce the same fidelity as traditional record masters."
I took this to mean that Rhino must have finally secured a master tape for "Making Our Dreams Come True". I should've given the CD a closer listen before posting my previous message because Gordon is indeed correct... The track suffers from heavy-handed noise reduction and therefore the higher frequencies do sound quite muffled.
Sorry for the false lead, Aaron.
And, man, do I miss how Rhino used to put out such fun CD compilations like Super Hits of the 70's and Tube Tunes!
Edited by Todd Ireland on 11 January 2008 at 10:09pm
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aaronk
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| Posted: 07 March 2008 at 9:01pm | IP Logged
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More Rhino vinyl transfers to add to this thread. Shame on them for using vinyl on songs that are readily available on CD!
On Millennium Hip Hop Party the following songs are from vinyl:
"The Humpty Dance" by Digital Underground - While many hip hop songs have "crackles" in the actual recording, this is not one of them. On the Millenium CD you can hear record clicks throughout the song. There's even a couple big pops on the fadeout at around 4:33-4:34.
"Parents Just Don't Understand" by Jazzy Jeff & Fresh Prince. Again, you can several record crackles throughout and some distorted "s" sounds in places. For example, at 0:30 there some definite crackles in a place that should be silent. By contrast, these crackles are not present on the original CD version of the album.
"Jump Around" by House Of Pain. I'm amazed at how many vinyl sources they used for this disc. You can plainly hear the turntable rumble and vinyl crackle right after the first note. On other CD copies, there is not any crackle or noise. There's even a couple of pops in the right channel on the very tail end of the fade out.
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Bill Cahill
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| Posted: 08 March 2008 at 7:28am | IP Logged
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Do we have people on the panel that have definitive answers on what happened to some of these masters? There are so many stories. 1)Tapes were lost stolen or destroyed, 2)People who don't really own the rights start licensing the material anyway, 3)CDs that are probably boots 4)Lazy labels.
On licensing material that you don't own, that's allegedly what happened when K-Tel licensed a Chad and Jeremy CD from World Artists. That CD of course came from vinyl. (At least according to an article I read, World Artist lost all rights in the sixties)
There are several labels from the 70's and 80's where the songs always seem to come from vinyl, does anybody know the story behind what happened to these masters?
Sussex (which sort of became Tabu)
Chelsea
Private Stock (looks like EdisonLite answered that abvoe)
Boardwalk
Ariola
For some of these, the major artist on the label were bought out by a bigger label or owned the masters themselves. That saved their masters from destruction. The Bill Withers tapes went to Columbia. Frankie Valli owned his own material as did Joan Jett and the Blackhearts. So they kept their own tapes.
So do we have any stories on these or other labels?
Edited by Bill Cahill on 08 March 2008 at 7:29am
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MCT1
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| Posted: 08 March 2008 at 11:29am | IP Logged
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Bill Cahill wrote:
| On licensing material that you don't own, that's allegedly what happened when K-Tel licensed a Chad and Jeremy CD from World Artists. That CD of course came from vinyl. (At least according to an article I read, World Artist lost all rights in the sixties) |
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I think that's correct. IINM, Capitol/EMI somehow ended up with the rights to the material that had originally been on World Artists, and it was reissued in the U.S. on Capitol as far back as 1966 or 1967. I'm not sure if they still own it today.
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What's the history behind this? Not being quite old enough to actually remember it, Sussex has always been kind of a mysterious label to me.
I thought that Ariola was owned by BMG? This was before they really got into the U.S. market in a big way.
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 08 March 2008 at 12:24pm | IP Logged
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My understanding about Sussex is that no one has been able to find master tapes. With Private Stock, as I previously reported, master tapes were thrown out when the owner decided not to pay storage bills anymore.
But Bill, what Chelsea or Ariola hits seem to always come from vinyl? With Chelsea, I know that Jigsaw and Austin Roberts came from tape. (At least I think Austin Roberts' "Something's Wrong With Me" came from tape.) The Jigsaw stuff was all preserved on tape because Chelsea only licensed their material from their UK owner, Chas Peate.
As for Ariola, I believe Billy Ocean and Mary Macgregor's hits came from tape. As did Marmalade's #48 hit "Falling Apart At the Seams", so again, I'm curious to know all the top 40 hits that have always come from vinyl only.
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 08 March 2008 at 1:56pm | IP Logged
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Wasn't Bill Withers originally on Sussex?
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BillCahill
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| Posted: 08 March 2008 at 2:22pm | IP Logged
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On Ariola, maybe it's just the Amii Stewart single that's from vinyl. On Chelsea I thought there was more than Jigsaw from vinyl but I may have mixed up Something's Wrong with Me with Rocky by Austin Roberts.
But from the other labels on Sussex we know that Gallery and The Presidents come from vinyl. Hits by Dennis Coffey and Wadsworth Mansion sound like tape sources.
Columbia got the Sussex Bill Withers tapes at auction.
On Private Stock there's Austin Roberts and Cindi Grecco from vinyl.
But Walter Murphy appears to be from tape.
So who knows.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 08 March 2008 at 2:58pm | IP Logged
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MCT1 wrote:
| IINM, Capitol/EMI somehow ended up with the rights to the material that had originally been on World Artists, and it was reissued in the U.S. on Capitol as far back as 1966 or 1967. I'm not sure if they still own it today. |
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Ember Records in the UK licensed the Chad & Jeremy material to World Artists for US release. The duo was signed outright by Columbia in early 1965. When World Artists folded late that year, Ember then licensed their Chad & Jeremy catalog to Capitol. My copy of "Yesterday's Gone" / "If I Loved You" (on the green-swirl Capitol Starline 6088) states "originally released: March 1966," which refers to the date the Starline reissue 45 first appeared.
"An Ember Records Production" appears on the label, as it also does on both the jacket and label of the Capitol Starline LP 2470 The Best Of Chad & Jeremy. The LP also adds "produced for the U.S.A. by Bill Miller." A relative of Manny Kellum, perhaps? :)
Capitol didn't retain US rights for long. I found a copy of the LP in the cutouts by 1971. Rhino licensed the Chad & Jeremy tracks from Celebrity Licensing for their The British Invasion / History Of British Rock CDs.
Capitol also licensed the 1967 Twiggy material from Ember UK.
Edited by Yah Shure on 08 March 2008 at 3:03pm
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Hykker
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| Posted: 08 March 2008 at 4:54pm | IP Logged
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Yah Shure wrote:
My copy of "Yesterday's Gone" / "If I Loved You" (on the green-swirl Capitol Starline 6088) states "originally released: March 1966," which refers to the date the Starline reissue 45 first appeared.
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What's the deal with the audio on that song? I have an 80s reissue Capitol GH album, and the Starline 45 you mentioned. That song sounds awful on both...muddy and what sounds like phase cancellation. A shame since it's my favorite song of theirs.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 08 March 2008 at 7:51pm | IP Logged
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Hykker, I hadn't listened to either of my Capitol "Yesterday's Gone" sources in decades, so I gave 'em a spin, along with the original World Artists 45.
The 1969 pressing of the Best Of LP at least had the cut (M) rather than (E) and it sounded okay.
The Star Line 45 was much worse, just as you described it. It was as if "Produced for the U.S.A. by Bill Miller" simply meant that Bill dusted off a US vinyl source for the reissue.
Then came the World Artists 45. Wow! It completely blew the Capitol reissues off the map; nice and clear, crisp and clean. It made the Star Line single sound as if that 45 had been mastered using a Victrola.
Agreed that it's a great song. The Overlanders' #75 cover on Hickory was the hit here, going top ten on both KDWB and WDGY. That version is in my personal all-time top ten.
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aaronk
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Jim has been without his internet access for a while, but hopefully he can add details to what he told me about Sussex. The short story is that the Detroit warehouse, which housed all the master tapes, "mysteriously" caught fire. It is also my understanding that about this time, they were in some financial trouble. Again, hopefully someone who knows more, or perhaps our good friend Jim, can add to this.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 13 March 2008 at 1:46am | IP Logged
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Actually, Jim shared this story with me via e-mail a while back and I still have it saved in my Inbox. I hope Jim won't mind me re-printing his short e-mail here:
Paul: I think it happened back in the late 70s/early 80s. The label/building's owner was WAY behind on payments, so, what a surprise, a fire breaks out! Couldn't they at least saved the tapes? (might have made it look like less of an "accident" if they did, I guess!) This may have been why the Right Stuff label comp for Dennis Coffey was scrubbed - they likely assumed the master tapes still existed. I believe Sussex was out of Detroit, and Canadian copies of the masters were found for their few REALLY big label hits, like "Scorpio" and "Nice To Be With You" by Gallery.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 13 March 2008 at 2:12am | IP Logged
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aaronk wrote:
More Rhino vinyl transfers to add to this thread. Shame on them for using vinyl on songs that are readily available on CD!
On Millennium Hip Hop Party the following songs are from vinyl:
"The Humpty Dance" by Digital Underground - While many hip hop songs have "crackles" in the actual recording, this is not one of them. On the Millenium CD you can hear record clicks throughout the song. There's even a couple big pops on the fadeout at around 4:33-4:34.
"Parents Just Don't Understand" by Jazzy Jeff & Fresh Prince. Again, you can several record crackles throughout and some distorted "s" sounds in places. For example, at 0:30 there some definite crackles in a place that should be silent. By contrast, these crackles are not present on the original CD version of the album.
"Jump Around" by House Of Pain. I'm amazed at how many vinyl sources they used for this disc. You can plainly hear the turntable rumble and vinyl crackle right after the first note. On other CD copies, there is not any crackle or noise. There's even a couple of pops in the right channel on the very tail end of the fade out. |
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What's especially baffling about this situation, Aaron, is that each of the songs you site are from the late '80s and '90s! So what on earth is Rhino doing mastering these hits from vinyl, given they were produced during the digital era and are all readily available on numerous CDs from tape sources??? It should be noted that the Millennium Hip Hop CD came out in 1999, shortly after Rhino had been bought out by Time-Warner. It was right around that time when Rhino seemed to begin it's present-day decline from the days when it was once widely regarded as one of the finest independent record labels in the industry.
Edited by Todd Ireland on 13 March 2008 at 2:13am
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eriejwg
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Think I have a few more. On Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies: AM Pop Classics, not sure if the whole LP is, but the following sound mastered from vinyl:
Jimmy Castor Bunch - Troglodyte
Michael Nesmith - Joanne
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satchdr
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jcr102 wrote:
| In the early 90's, when the Guess Who's albums were just starting to appear on CD, I bought So Long Bannatyne on RCA. Turns out the entire CD was mastered from an LP. In fact, when I compared it with my original LP, it was almost identical in sound in terms of record wear. I've always wondered why they did this.... |
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To come back to this thread, I just purchased the BMG Canada twofer with the Guess Who's "So Long, Bannatyne" and "#10." The packaging is nice with the booklet containing copies of the original album art but, even more importantly, it did not appear to me that "So Long, Bannatyne" was mastered from vinyl. Although, I must admit my testing was not scientific, when listening to the quieter passages with earphones, I did not hear anything that indicated that vinyl was the source. Could it be that these twofers were mastered from the original tapes?
"So Long, Bannatyne" is an excellent album. My original LP that I bought in 1971 is in excellent condition and it wears very well hearing it on CD (gulp!) 38 years later.
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crapfromthepast
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I found that the early 1979 hit "Shake It" by Ian Matthews was taken from vinyl for Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 25.
I found the LP length from a tape source on Time-Life's Singers And Songwriters - 1975-1979. It runs about 15 seconds longer than the 45. And a world of difference, in terms of sound quality.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 26 February 2009 at 11:28am | IP Logged
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Thanks for the tip, Ron! The Time-Life Singers and Songwriters 1975-1979 CD is out-of-print, but it's not hard to find a copy online right now for a reasonable price.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: CDs with songs mastered from vinyl
