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jimct
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 11:06am | IP Logged
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Current database CDs for this song run between (5:43) and (5:47). But both my commercial 45 and the "Long Version" of the only promo 45 for it that I own, a listed (4:44/5:49) promo, have a listed time of (5:49) and an actual time of (5:48). The (4:44) DJ 45 short version has a listed time of (4:44) and an actual time of (4:43). I don't own the other promo 45 for this, although a friend of mine did at one time. He told me that this other promo 45 featured a different vocal take. Besides the times I refer to above, the database also notes DJ 45 lengths of (4:38) and (5:52). Pat, are these the listed times for the other promo 45? Can I assume that this promo 45 also includes a "long (5:52)/short (4:38)" configuration, or are there TWO other promo 45s for this? If you could look into this situation for me, Pat, whenever you happen to get a moment, I would sincerely appreciate it.
Edited by jimct on 23 November 2007 at 11:07am
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aaronk
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 12:19pm | IP Logged
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I've left a message with a friend of mine, who used to be the A&R guy for Dire Straits. I know that there IS an alternate version, which is a completely different take. In fact, it was recorded in an entirely different session.
The story I know so far is that when the song was being released, their A&R guy (my friend), asked them to go back into the studio to re-record the track to make it more "disco-friendly." To my knowlege, this newly recorded version was only released in England, but I'll have to confirm that with him. I do have a dub of this alternate version, but it's from a British promo 45, not a US promo. Hopefully, I'll have more details soon.
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Gary Mack
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 3:32pm | IP Logged
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The 4:38 Warner Brothers promo edit - WBS-8736 - is, indeed, an alternate vocal from the 5:52 UK version featured on the B side. The revised promo, the 4:44 length, is identified as WBS-87356RE-1.
Here's more
GM
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jimct
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 3:49pm | IP Logged
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Gary, thanks for comin' through for us once again!
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 5:56pm | IP Logged
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WBS-87356RE-1
This is the one I own, matching Jim's timing's. The 4:44 version says (Edit), while the 5:49 side says (Long Version).
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aaronk
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| Posted: 23 November 2007 at 10:19pm | IP Logged
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Gary Mack wrote:
| The 4:38 Warner Brothers promo edit - WBS-8736 - is, indeed, an alternate vocal from the 5:52 UK version featured on the B side. |
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Interesting! So, perhaps the same thing happened here as what happened in England. It appears that the more "disco-friendly" version was the one that became the more common version and the one on the album. Evidently, the dub that I have from the British promo 45 is the earlier version, and not the later one. I'm hoping to hear back from my friend soon to get the entire story. (By the way, I just heard Jim's short DJ 45 version, and it's different from the dub I have. His sounds like an edit of the LP version.)
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aaronk
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| Posted: 24 November 2007 at 3:47pm | IP Logged
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I just spoke with my friend Johnny (the A&R guy for Dire Straits, living in England at the time). Here's what he told me about "Sultans." He originally discovered them after hearing a demo version of the song. That demo version is available on a vinyl LP, but I don't have the name offhand.
After being signed, the LP version was recorded, but it wasn't getting any airplay in England. Johnny asked the band to go back into the studio to re-record the track and make it a little LESS slick---more "gruff" sounding is the term he used. (I had this backwards in my earlier post.) This version was what made the 2nd British 45 stock and promo copies, and eventually made it a hit in England, even though the band didn't want to release it.
To his knowledge, that version was never released here in the US, but he was in England at the time, so it might have been put out without his knowledge. I'm curious to know if the dub I have from his British promo 45 (the "edit" side) is the same as the US promo without the "RE-1."
Edited by aaronk on 24 November 2007 at 3:48pm
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jimct
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| Posted: 25 November 2007 at 4:46pm | IP Logged
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Gary Mack wrote:
The 4:38 Warner Brothers promo edit - WBS-8736 - is, indeed, an alternate vocal from the 5:52 UK version featured on the B side. The revised promo, the 4:44 length, is identified as WBS-87356RE-1.
GM |
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Pat, my promo 45, which said "edit" on it, and does indeed come from the LP version, has the same "RE-1" notation on it as Gary Mack's copy does. But my promo 45 appears to be the SECOND promo 45 issued for this song. Surprisingly, it seems that the (4:38/5:52) "alternate vocal take" promo 45, that Gary Mack also owns, does NOT indicate "RE-1", and was apparently issued BEFORE the later, "RE-1" edited LP version. FYI, your new database notation for this song implies just the opposite.
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Gary Mack
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| Posted: 25 November 2007 at 6:56pm | IP Logged
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aaronk wrote:
I just spoke with my friend Johnny (the A&R guy for Dire Straits, living in England at the time). Here's what he told me about "Sultans." He originally discovered them after hearing a demo version of the song. That demo version is available on a vinyl LP, but I don't have the name offhand.
After being signed, the LP version was recorded, but it wasn't getting any airplay in England. Johnny asked the band to go back into the studio to re-record the track and make it a little LESS slick---more "gruff" sounding is the term he used. (I had this backwards in my earlier post.) This version was what made the 2nd British 45 stock and promo copies, and eventually made it a hit in England, even though the band didn't want to release it.
To his knowledge, that version was never released here in the US, but he was in England at the time, so it might have been put out without his knowledge. I'm curious to know if the dub I have from his British promo 45 (the "edit" side) is the same as the US promo without the "RE-1." |
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The "gruff" version is what's on the first US promo 45, whereas the hit version was the revised release. It's a good thing WB made the switch, for I doubt the "gruff" version would have been as popular here.
GM
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Pat Downey
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| Posted: 26 November 2007 at 8:01am | IP Logged
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Jim, the comment in the database starts out "dj copies of this 45 originally ran (4:38) and (5:52) but were later issued in a remixed version running (4:44) and (5:49)". This seems to be in agreement with what you are saying as well as Gary. My (4:38)/(5:52) dj does not say RE-1 either.
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jimct
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| Posted: 26 November 2007 at 10:23am | IP Logged
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Pat, the (4:44/5:49) 2nd promo 45 was NOT remixed. It was simply an edit/fade of the original LP Version. The (4:38/5:52), initial promo 45 version was an "alternate take" of the song, not from the album, and not at all "remixed" either, and was described earlier in this thread as "gruff". So, the word "remixed" in no way applies to either of these two versions. That was the point I was trying to make, sir.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 18 October 2014 at 7:36pm | IP Logged
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Trying to summarize.
The "smooth" version has a smooth-sounding snare sound, and has the lyrics "good night, now it's time to go home". This was recorded first.
The "gruff" version has a rough-sounding snare sound, and has the lyrics "good night, thank you, now it's time to go home". This was recorded second, according to Johnny, the A&R guy for Dire Straits. It's not a remix, but a complete rerecording from scratch. This version was never commercially available in the US, and has never appeared on CD.
In the UK, the smooth version tanked, so the band recorded the gruff version, and the gruff version eventually became the hit (peaked at #8 in UK).
In the US, the gruff version was actually released to radio first and (apparently) tanked, so WB released the smooth version, and the smooth version became the hit (peaked at #3 in US).
The gruff version came out in the US on promos sent to radio.
I found a 12" promo, Warner Bros. PRO-A-783, copyright 1978, listing "Sultans Of Swing (Long Version) 6:00", and containing the full length of the gruff version. It looks like it runs 5:59 here, from a YouTube video of a guy playing the 12" promo of the song.
It's also on a 7" promo, Warner Bros. WBS 8736 (matrix no. WAA8510S), listed as "Sultans Of Swing (Long Version) 5:52". I think it runs 5:53 here, but I can't confirm the source of the file I have.
There's an edit of the gruff version on the other side of the 7" promo, Warner Bros. WBS 8736 (matrix no. WAA8510V1S), listed as "Sultans Of Swing (Edit) 4:38". I think it runs 4:38, but again can't confirm.
The second 7" promo, Warner Bros. WBS-8736RE-1, included the 5:49 smooth US LP version (matrix no. WAA8382S) on one side, and a 4:44 edit of the smooth US LP version on the other side [matrix no.(WAA8382S)DJ].
Commercial 45s had a catalog number of WBS-8736RE-1 on the 5:49 A-side and WBS-8736 on the B-side (the song "Southbound Again"). We don't know if there was a commercial US 45 including the gruff mix and lacking the RE-1 in the catalog number, although I highly doubt that such a thing exists.
For the smooth US LP version, the greatest hits CD Money For Nothing (1988) sounds terrific. It's also on three Time-Life CDs, which all seem to use the same analog transfer as the original Dire Straits CD. All sound good, but I prefer Money For
Nothing.
Here are editing instructions to recreate the RE-1 promo 45 version from Money For Nothing:
Segment 1
ends on downbeat, 4 beats before the word "Then" in the LP version
Extends from 0:00.0 to 2:40.7 of both the LP version and promo 45 edit
Remove the 112 beats from 2:40.7 to 3:26.2 of the LP version.
Segment 2
Extends from 2:40.7 to 4:42.1 of the promo 45 edit
Extends from 3:26.2 to 5:27.6 of the LP version
Fade
24 beats long, fades during the solo (Nooooooooo!!)
Extends from 4:32.5 to 4:42.1 of the promo 45 edit
Extends from 5:18.0 to 5:27.6 of the LP version
Edited by crapfromthepast on 20 October 2014 at 7:28am
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Bwci Bo
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| Posted: 19 October 2014 at 2:23pm | IP Logged
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Ron: Thanks for the editing instructions.
Do you know if the short "gruff" version is edited in the same spot as the short "smooth" version? Despite the gruff version being a re-recording, I believe the song structure is more or less identical to the smooth version so it would make sense to have the edit in the same spot.
Interestingly, most radio stations here play the full length smooth version and this is the only version I recall hearing back when it was released. However, there is one local station that plays the full length gruff version. It's clearly been recorded into their automation system from a vinyl source, as has the majority of their gold library. This makes for some interesting listening as they do tend to play far more original 45 versions than any other stations around here.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 20 October 2014 at 12:33am | IP Logged
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The non-RE US promo run times are 5:55 and 4:37. The US 12" promo appears to run a little longer on the fade out than the promo 7".
The UK stock 7" single runs the same length as the US promo 7". The longest version I've heard appears on the German stock 7" single (I believe), where it runs 6:03. It has an even longer fade out than the US 12" promo.
Edited by aaronk on 20 October 2014 at 12:39am
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edogak2000
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| Posted: 05 May 2020 at 12:14am | IP Logged
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The long "gruff" version now has been released in digital format on amazon Germany and amazon UK, maybe on iTunes too. [along with Eastbound Train (Live Version)].
Sultans Of Swing runs here 5:54.
I also own the WBS 8736-Promo,
the long gruff version runs here 5:55,
and the EDIT on the B-Side runs 4:38.
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EternalStatic
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| Posted: 05 May 2020 at 3:51am | IP Logged
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That’s exciting — do you know if it is available in any lossless formats
there?
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edogak2000
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| Posted: 05 May 2020 at 4:16am | IP Logged
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On "de.7digtal.com" (Germany) you can buy it as
16-bit/44.1kHz FLAC
On amazon it's mp3.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 05 May 2020 at 4:28am | IP Logged
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Awesome! The only trouble is that the US 7digital doesn't have it, nor does Qobuz :(
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EternalStatic
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edogak2000 - Thanks for the extra info.!
Aaron - Maybe we can start requesting the file in U.S. stores now that we know it exists? It's a start, I suppose.
Edited by EternalStatic on 05 May 2020 at 4:32am
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davidlg1971
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edogak2000 wrote:
The long "gruff" version now has been
released in digital format on amazon Germany and amazon UK,
maybe on iTunes too. [along with Eastbound Train (Live
Version)].
Sultans Of Swing runs here 5:54.
I also own the WBS 8736-Promo,
the long gruff version runs here 5:55,
and the EDIT on the B-Side runs 4:38. |
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Thank you.
Late last year I bought the WBS 8736-Promo for dubbing
purposes, but unfortunately it's pretty worn out.
Does anyone know where one can purchase the "gruff" version
digital download in lossless? In the US it seems like most
sites only have the original version.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Dire Straits-"Sultans Of Swing"
