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The Hits Man
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| Posted: 24 March 2009 at 6:56am | IP Logged
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First, "Moonlight Feels Right" definitely sounds like it's from tape on the Rhino Have A Nice Day disc, and in stereo.
"Everybody be Dancing" on the same series sounds like it's a needle drop to me. I never paid attention to how mono it is, and I do not use headphones.
What Bruce Blackmon has are the multitracks. That's how he was able to remix everything. It is the original stereo mixdown tapes allegedly burned up in the fire.
Various Private Stock material has been turning up on tape, like Cyndi Grecco's "Making Our Dreams Come True". As noted by someone else, there are most certainly tape copies in existence that pressing plants used back in the 70s. In the absence of the first generation mixdown tapes, using the copies is preferable to me, as I have no interest in new, revisionist mixes. Latter day mixers always tend to leave some sort of personal stamp on their work, or change something. Suffice it to say, they never sound the same as the originals.
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AndrewChouffi
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| Posted: 24 March 2009 at 6:56am | IP Logged
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Hi People,
I don't own the new Bruce Blackman mixed 'Official Starbuck' CD, but I do plan on buying it.
For what it's worth, to my ears the samples DO sound like the original tracks (nothing re-recorded to my ears).
It's just that whenever 8, 16 (or more) tracks are remixed 3 decades later it is difficult to get the exact sound of an old (creamy, murky) mix - or maybe Mr. Blackman wanted to get the mixes as crisp as possible without sounding totally revisionist.
It just seems to me that reverb levels aren't exact, kick drum is more punchy, etc. making these mixes not clones of the 70's destroyed stereo mixes (which is normal).
When I buy the CD I will do a more thorough comparison of the tracks and report, if other people don't beat me to it...
Andy
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 24 March 2009 at 8:59am | IP Logged
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<http://www.cherryred.co.uk/
I have bought some of the Osmonds CDs from this label, and they all sound great! >
Actually, those Osmonds CDs are on the 7T's label, which is a subsidiary of Cherry Red. I've bought a dozen 7T's releases and all are from tape sources (with the odd exception of an occasional bonus cut that had to be taken from vinyl, e.g. a couple Drifters non-LP singles).
That said, the people at 7T's clearly do their best to get tape sources, but the people who run Cherry Red are not the same as the people who run 7T's, so I don't really know if they are that conscientious about getting hard to find tape sources. If anyone buys their Starbuck CD, please report back here as to whether vinyl was once again used. I have the "Moonlight Feels Right/Rock'n Roll Rocket" 2-fer that came out in the U.S. - a good vinyl cleaning, but vinyl nonetheless - the easiest way to tell is to listen to the fades of songs on headphones, turn up the volume a bit, and see if there are any vinyl indications in those last few seconds.
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 24 March 2009 at 9:07am | IP Logged
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<First, "Moonlight Feels Right" definitely sounds like it's from tape on the Rhino Have A Nice Day disc, and in stereo. "Everybody be Dancing" on the same series sounds like it's a needle drop to me. >
The main reason why the same care did NOT go into finding a tape (from the same source location) for "Everybody Be Dancin'" is that this song was a last minute substitution when that last batch of 3 CDs (of "Have a Nice Day") was being put together. I know because Rhino was 5 songs short when completing these volumes and they called me to pick substitutions - I gave a list of about 15, and 5 of them were the last-minute substitutions - "Everybody Be Dancin'", "Get Used To It", "Save Your Kisses For Me", "Did You Boogie (With Your Baby)" and "Street Corner Serenade". (I also was involved with other selections that had earlier been chosen for those volumes (e.g. "Love Really Hurts Without You").
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 24 March 2009 at 9:15am | IP Logged
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<Various Private Stock material has been turning up on tape, like Cyndi Grecco's "Making Our Dreams Come True".>
Seriously? WHERE is that song on CD from a tape source? That would be incredible. Is it the single mix or the 30-second (or 60?) tv theme version? Also what other Private Stock songs have finally showed up from tape sources in recent years?
<In the absence of the first generation mixdown tapes, using the copies is preferable to me, as I have no interest in new, revisionist mixes. >
I agree with that assessment completely. There have only been a couple occasions where I'll go with the new mix over the old mix. One was the Supremes' "The Happening" and the other was the Rubinoos' B-side "As Long As I'm With You". In both cases, the new engineers were keeping in mind the original mixes, and I think the Supremes one just sounds better, clearer. The Rubinoos song had been only available on vinyl -- or this newer mix on the Varese Sarabande CD. The mixer in the Rubinoos camp tried to match the original mix - although the background vocals were unfortunately a bit lower - and he added some bell/chimes near the end of the song that either weren't there before or buried too low to ever hear. So it was choosing either that version, or my very distorted 45s (as they all were, and I had about 5 of them.)
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Santi Paradoa
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| Posted: 25 March 2009 at 11:02am | IP Logged
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EdisonLite wrote:
| The main reason why the same care did NOT go into finding a tape (from the same source location) for "Everybody Be Dancin'" is that this song was a last minute substitution when that last batch of 3 CDs (of "Have a Nice Day") was being put together. I know because Rhino was 5 songs short when completing these volumes and they called me to pick substitutions - I gave a list of about 15, and 5 of them were the last-minute substitutions - "Everybody Be Dancin'", "Get Used To It", "Save Your Kisses For Me", "Did You Boogie (With Your Baby)" and "Street Corner Serenade". (I also was involved with other selections that had earlier been chosen for those volumes (e.g. "Love Really Hurts Without You"). |
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Does this mean all five of these tracks are mastered from vinyl on those Rhino discs? Or is it just Everybody Be Dancin' plus Did You Boogie (With Your Baby)?
Edited by Santi Paradoa on 25 March 2009 at 11:09am
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 25 March 2009 at 12:25pm | IP Logged
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Amazingly, just 2 days later, I've received the Starbuck CD ordered from the Starbuck CD.
First observations are that Moonlight Feels Right is not the original, or is a different take. The vocal inflection sounds different than from the Rhino CD. Besides that, on the Starbuck CD, Moonlight runs 4:10, :35 longer than on Rhino.
"Everybody Be Dancin'", to my ears, sounds really close to the original, but I thunk there was remixing involved.
I'll send some music out to the experts on the board and hopefully they can report back.
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AndrewChouffi
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| Posted: 25 March 2009 at 6:41pm | IP Logged
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I just listened to a full-length dub of "Moonlight Feels Right" from the 'Official Starbuck' CD.
It does go on longer than the 45, it does sound very crisp; even the mix is not too far off from the 45.
BUT...as MPH711 suggested, there is ABSOLUTELY a new drum track on this mix! (With just the 30 second sample I wasn't so sure.)
The easiest way to tell it's a new drum track is to listen to the intro; there are no 'fills' on the drum track on the remix, where there are on the 45.
Andy
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AndrewChouffi
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| Posted: 25 March 2009 at 6:49pm | IP Logged
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I just listened to a full-length dub of "Everybody Be Dancin'" from the 'Official Starbuck' CD.
The mix, while crisp, does not sound much like the 45.
As MPH711 suggested, the drum track sounds new (it is possibly a 'triggered' drum track).
Andy
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 25 March 2009 at 7:47pm | IP Logged
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AndrewChouffi wrote:
The easiest way to tell it's a new drum track is to listen to the intro; there are no 'fills' on the drum track on the remix, where there are on the 45.
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That's where I noticed it, too. The five-beat fill just before and onto the opening words "the wind" are AWOL on the new remix. Also at that same spot, you can now hear (and see) the intro level being potted down just prior to the vocal on the remix. The fills on the original mix masked that.
The little stingers following "moonlight" and "feels right" during the hooks are also mixed differently, being split wider between the channels now. When summed to mono, they are way down in the mix.
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 25 March 2009 at 8:56pm | IP Logged
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Gentlemen, thanks for your reviews. I've decided to list my CD on eBay.
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 26 March 2009 at 8:56am | IP Logged
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<Does this mean all five of these tracks are mastered from vinyl on those Rhino discs? Or is it just Everybody Be Dancin' plus Did You Boogie (With Your Baby)? >
Just those 2. In the case of the other 3, the master tapes were easily and quickly found.
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The Hits Man
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| Posted: 26 March 2009 at 10:55pm | IP Logged
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Never trust the artist to remix or remaster...
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 27 March 2009 at 1:43am | IP Logged
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I listened to all 3 top 50 singles (thanks to John G) on the new Starbuck "Official" CD. Clearly, Bruce Blackman had the multi-track master tapes in his hands but he chose to remix the songs, adding new instrumentation and sometimes even new lead vocals, instead of trying to match the original mixes. I would have preferred he (or a professional mixer) listen closely to the original mixes and match them exactly but that would take time, effort & money. I guess we'll have to listen to our cleaned vinyl sources (except for "Moonlight" which luckily was always from tape) if we prefer to hear the songs the way we remember hearing them.
Edited by EdisonLite on 28 March 2009 at 12:11am
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 27 March 2009 at 10:51am | IP Logged
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I received my copy of the Official Starbuck CD in the mail and, while the sound quality is outstanding, I share in the disappointment that the songs aren't 100% faithful to the original stereo mixes. It appears Bruce may have been more concerned about getting the recordings to sound as clean and crystal clear as possible, even if it meant "reworking" certain instruments, to counter the plethera of poor sounding Starbuck vinyl dubs and bootlegs that exist in the marketplace.
Yet in Bruce's defense, I do believe a great deal of time and effort went into these mixes and I think the average casual listener would probably be satisfied with them. And since Bruce is independently selling and distributing this CD from his own website, it probably didn't make economic sense for him to spend over $100 an hour to hire an audio engineer to reconstruct the original stereo mixes for a CD compilation where the total sales would likely only recover a small fraction of the total engineering costs.
Most of us on this message board are historical "purists" who want our Top 40 music to sound exactly the way we remember hearing it on the radio and buying it at retail. Unfortunately, our numbers make up a small minority of the music buying public and as a result we are sadly becoming increasingly irrelevant when it comes to economic business decisions in an era where CD sales are dropping at an alarming rate. But I'm glad Starbuck is at least making a little money on their music from whatever sales are being generated from the Official disc.
Edited by Todd Ireland on 27 March 2009 at 11:07am
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The Hits Man
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| Posted: 27 March 2009 at 5:56pm | IP Logged
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EdisonLite wrote:
| Clearly, Bruce Blackman had the multi-track master tapes in his hands and yet he chose to remix the songs, |
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Well, that's all you can do with a multitrack! The multis are just the individual tracks that have to be mixed into a mono, two, or 5.1 mixdown. It is the two-track stereo mixdowns that no longer exist.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 27 March 2009 at 6:59pm | IP Logged
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The Hits Man wrote:
EdisonLite wrote:
| Clearly, Bruce Blackman had the multi-track master tapes in his hands and yet he chose to remix the songs, |
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Well, that's all you can do with a multitrack! The multis are just the individual tracks that have to be mixed into a mono, two, or 5.1 mixdown. It is the two-track stereo mixdowns that no longer exist. |
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No, he's saying he wishes the multi-track master tapes were used to faithfully recreate the original stereo mixes, rather than having new instrumentation added.
Edited by Todd Ireland on 27 March 2009 at 7:00pm
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 28 March 2009 at 12:18am | IP Logged
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Well, I got an email from the man himself ... Bruce Blackman. He told me what went on and I thought I'd share it with everyone here. Now I realize it was not a case of him trying to be artsy and change the mixes to his liking in 2009. It was a case of some instrumental tracks -- like the drums -- being destroyed. And after reading what he wrote, I have a lot of respect for him. Here's what he wrote me about the 2009 "Offical Starbuck" CD:
My mixes came from the original multi-track masters (although it took me several years to restore them).
Most were 8 track, 1 inch, some were from 15 track (one track in the studio didn't work) and some from 24 track. It took me 8 years to get the job done. The studio masters were severely damaged and some of the original tracks were destroyed (especially drums).
Our recording sessions were a little different. I always recorded every song on my Tascam 8 track and the
band would then learn the song. Some of the songs are just me playing and others are me and Bo Wagner.
My original 8 track masters were identical to the finished masters but with a little less quality. With the new technology available today, I was able to work mostly with my original 8 tracks and bring them up to modern standards.
To answer your question succinctly, my CD comes from new mixes of the original multi-track masters.
Bruce Blackman
Edited by EdisonLite on 28 March 2009 at 9:07pm
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MPH711
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| Posted: 30 March 2009 at 7:59am | IP Logged
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To Bruce: I wish you could have put the opening drum notes on to "I Got To Know"...I just hate the way it sounds with you leaving these opening drums off!
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Santi Paradoa
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| Posted: 17 August 2019 at 6:59pm | IP Logged
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Any recommendations for the best sounding CD releases for "Everybody Be Dancin'" and "Making Our Dreams Come True." Both songs are discussed in this thread and I realize they may all be sourced by vinyl.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Starbuck-"Everybody Be Dancin’"
