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aaronk
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Billboard disc is correct (and I would presume the others are correct, too)--no ad lib. This is just a case of TM trying to create the 45 version and getting it wrong.
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Aaron Kannowski
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prisdeej
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Was the ad lib on the 3:38 edited version?
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Dave L.
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AndrewChouffi
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To Prisdeej:
No.
Andy
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Fetta
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Heard Sirius/XM play what sounded like the promo version? Does this exist on CD anywhere?
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NightAire
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I think I'm asking what Fetta was asking last Fall: is the 3:38 version available on CD?
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Gene Savage
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aaronk
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Not that I know of, Gene. Check your email, though.
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Aaron Kannowski
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aaronk
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As I was listening to the promo 12" this afternoon, I fully expected the "Fade End" version to be the LP version/mix. To my surprise, this is actually the 45 version/mix, but it has a slightly longer ending that fades out (similar to the LP version). The main difference between the two versions is that the 45 mix has a tambourine throughout, whereas the LP version does not. Also, the ethereal keyboard opening starts at full volume on both mixes of the 12" single, but it fades in on the LP version.
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crapfromthepast
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Nine and a half years later, it's time to revisit "Kyrie".
"Broken Wings" was the first single from Welcome To The Real World. If I recall correctly, the album was released before the second single, "Kyrie". The first version of the song to appear anywhere was the album version.
LP version (printed 4:24 on LP label and CD)
The LP version fades in with the warbly keyboards. The first piano chord is at 0:07. The first sung note is at 0:08. The bassline kicks in at 0:33. The bassline is the only instrument behind the vocals in the first verse, from 0:44 to 1:06. The LP version fades from 4:06 to 4:25. (Times are from the Welcome To The Real World CD.)
The first CD with the LP version was on RCA's Welcome To The Real World (1985). It sounds fine here, with a huge dynamic range, about 2 dB of headroom, a reasonable EQ, and no evidence of noise reduction. It runs at 89.9 BPM throughout, with no drift.
The same analog transfer is used on an RCA sampler called Super Sampler (1986). It has the same fade points, also runs at 89.9 BPM throughout, and has about 6 dB of headroom.
There's a different analog transfer on Realm's Gold And Platinum Vol. 3 (1987). It runs at 89.4 BPM, has the fade points at the same places in the song (no early fade), and has about 2 dB of headroom.
Sound quality is about the same for all three of these CDs.
45 version (printed 4:10, called "Acapella End" on B-side of promo 12 inch single, unlabeled on A-side of promo 45)
The 45 was on purple vinyl, which was pretty cool. "Sara" by Starship was on blue vinyl. RCA had fun in 1985.
The 45 is a different mix than the LP version (added tamborine and splashy percussion effects starting at 0:32).
The 45 version starts with the warbly keyboards at full volume. The first piano chord is at 0:07. The first sung note is at 0:08. The bassline kicks in at 0:32. There is a tamborine and some other splashy percussion effects over the bassline starting at 0:32 and continuing through the first verse. I think the tamborine continues throughout the song, but it's easiest to hear from 0:32 to 1:10. The 45 structure matches the LP version until 4:07, with an a capella ending from 4:07 to 4:12. (Times are from the Billboard Top Hits 1986 CD.)
The 45 version showed up first on Rhino's Billboard Top Hits 1986 (1994). It sounds a little odd here. Brittle EQ, extremely fast transition to silence after the a capella ending, possible turntable rumble under the a capella ending (listen for three low-frequency rumbles, which may correspond to the same location on a record as it rotates). I noticed a small drift in tempo from 89.0 BPM to 89.1 BPM - not significant by any means, but it's real and it's not present on the LP version. All of this points to the Billboard disc possibly taking the song from vinyl.
The following CD all use the same analog transfer as Billboard Top Hits 1986:- Time-Life's Sounds Of The Eighties Vol. 4 1986 (1994)
- JCI's Only Rock 'N Roll #1 Radio Hits 1985-1989 (1996)
- Warner Special Products' 2-CD Sweet Love (1996)
- Time-Life's 2-CD Modern Rock Vol. 4 1986-1987 (1999) - digitally exactly 2 dB quieter than Sounds Of The Eighties Vol. 4 1986
- Rhino's 7-CD Like Omigod (2002) - absolute polarity inverted (insignificant)
- Varese Sarabande's Totally Oldies Vol. 5 Then '80s (2003) - digitally exactly 3.5 dB louder than Sounds Of The Eighties Vol. 4 1986, plus added compression/limiting in all but first 1:10 of the song
- Time-Life's 2-CD Classic Soft Rock Vol. 9 Cool Night (2007) - digitally identical to Sounds Of The Eighties Vol. 4 1986
Unsurprisingly, all of the above sound about the same.
Promo 12 inch single version (printed 4:31, called "Fade End" on A-side of promo 12 inch single)
Aaron noted that the promo 12 inch single version is not the LP version, as one would expect.
I found what I believe to be the promo 12 inch single version on a fairly obscure compilation, The Number Ones The '80s (Simitar 55612, 1998). This version starts with the warbly keyboards at full volume, and follows the structure of the LP version with a fade at the end from 4:07 to 4:28, which is past where the LP version ends. It runs at 90.0 BPM on this CD.
But, it's not the same mix as the 45! Listen to the splashy percussion in the first verse, from 0:44 to 1:06 - it has no reverb in this version. In the 45, the splashy percussion has a huge amount of reverb.
My guess is that this mix was the first attempt at a 45 mix from the LP version. It does punch it up with added percussion, but keeps the same song structure as the LP version. My hunch is that someone at RCA wanted to punch it up even more, by adding effects on the added stuff and adding a very cold ending. All just a hunch; I have no way to confirm.
Promo 45 version (printed 3:38, called "Edited Version" on B-side of promo 45)
We know that it starts with the bassline, and likely uses the same mix as the 4:10 45 (can't confirm). Doesn't exist on CD.
LP version with grafted-on 45 ending
This didn't exist in 1985.
I found this on swaitek's The A List Disc 34 (1994). The first 4:06 uses the same analog transfer as Welcome To The Real World, with the absolute polarity inverted (insignificant). It runs 89.8 BPM throughout. The 45 ending is from 4:06 to 4:10. I can't tell where the 45 ending came from.
I'm 99% certain this was an in-house edit at TM Century, but can't confirm.
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aaronk
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crapfromthepast wrote:
Promo 12 inch single version (printed 4:31, called "Fade End" on A-side of promo 12 inch single)
...But, it's not the same mix as the 45! Listen to the splashy percussion in the first verse, from 0:44 to 1:06 - it has no reverb in this version. In the 45, the splashy percussion has a huge amount of reverb. |
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I'm doing an A/B between the Billboard 1986 disc and the Number Ones of the '80s (Simitar) disc, and the mixes sound the same to me. The Rhino disc runs about 1% slower and has a much brighter EQ, though, which is why I think the percussion doesn't "punch" as much on the Simitar disc. This obscure compilation you found does, indeed, have the promo 12" version, which is the 45 mix but without the acapella ending.
EDIT: Ron pointed out the difference I should've been listening for, and I do hear what he's talking about. There's a "thwack" sound effect on the word "mountainside." It's dry on the promo 12" version (and Simitar CD) and has heavy reverb on the 45 version w/acapella ending.
Edited by aaronk on 25 August 2019 at 4:04pm
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Aaron Kannowski
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aaronk
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crapfromthepast wrote:
| The 45 version showed up first on Rhino's Billboard Top Hits 1986 (1994). It sounds a little odd here. Brittle EQ, extremely fast transition to silence after the a capella ending, possible turntable rumble under the a capella ending (listen for three low-frequency rumbles, which may correspond to the same location on a record as it rotates)...All of this points to the Billboard disc possibly taking the song from vinyl. |
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For years, I've thought the same thing, but after hearing the "Fade End" version from the Simitar disc, I no longer think so. I think it's a combination of how the song was mastered originally and the EQ choices of the Rhino disc. The three low frequency noises you hear during the acapella ending are not turntable rumble at all. In fact, they are the boomy drums bleeding into the vocal. These drums can be heard at the 3:02 mark of the song, which is possibly the segment of the vocal that the engineer used for the ending. Also, the promo 12" vinyl ends exactly like the Rhino disc with an extremely fast transition to silence.
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crapfromthepast
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I found a good example: Listen for a splashy percussion sound at the end of the phrase "mountain side" at around 0:46. On the BB disc, it's really reverb-y. On the Simitar disc, it's still there, but it lacks the reverb.
I'd like to figure out the source of the mastering for the Simitar disc. Based on the playing time, I suspect that it's RCA's Nipper's #1 Hits 1956-1986. I'll be happy to do comparisons if someone sends me a CD rip.
Nice catch on the drums bleeding into the vocals. I wasn't sure what to make of it. And it would be a little weird if Rhino, in 1994, couldn't get tapes for a common hit, from a big label, from just eight years earlier.
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crapfromthepast
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Thanks to Aaron, I can confirm that the Simitar CD uses the same analog transfer as RCA's Nipper's #1 Hits 1956-1986 (1989). I'd also guess that any discs in the database with a run time of 4:27-4:29 are also the promo 12 inch single version, rather than the LP version.
And the sounds in question on the 45 mix are thwacky synthy percussion sounds, a lot like the hard-to-describe sounds in the rhythm track in "Broken Wings". There's one that starts on the downbeat immediately following the end of the phrase "mountain side" around 0:46. On the 45, it starts in the left channel and echoes into the right channel. On the promo 12 inch single, it's dry (more of a thud) and entirely in the left channel.
I think we have everything covered for this song for now. We'll revisit in another nine years!
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AndrewChouffi
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Does anyone out there have a dub of the A-list / TM Century version that I could hear?
Thanks,
Andy
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aaronk
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Andy, I think Ron may have already sent this to you, but I'm 100% positive this is a TM Century in-house job. They had the right idea but the wrong mix. My guess is that when they first issued it on GoldDisc, the Rhino disc had not yet come out, and someone tried to create the hit version by tacking the acapella ending onto the LP mix and didn't notice the mix difference nor get the edit point correct.
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eriejwg
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Has anyone determined the reason for the :03 difference
between the actual 45 and the 45 versions in the database?
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eriejwg
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Does the 45 have the vocal echo at the end?
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aaronk
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The :03 difference is because the CD runs about 1% too slow.
I'm not sure what you mean by "vocal echo," but the US stock 45 has the acapella vocal ending. There's no echo or trailing reverb on the vocal.
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garye
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Revisting this for me!
I have 2 dubs from the 45 and both have the cold vocal
ending. When I heard this in 1985, this was the version
I heard on radio with no fade out.
I also assume the radio edit starts with the syth
playing after the eerie vocal.
Just want to make sure got it right.
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PopArchivist
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The only version I heard was with no fade out on the radio edit and the cold vocal ending.
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promojunkie
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I wish the edited version would make it to cd. I've
searched high and low for a decent promo 45 for the
edited (3:38) version. After purchasing 2 45's that
were hard to clean up due to pops and scratches, does
anyone have a clean version they can send? I would be
most appreciative.
Edited by promojunkie on 02 July 2021 at 9:13pm
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: "Kyrie" - Mr. Mister
