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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 04 May 2011 at 6:56pm | IP Logged
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<There IS a remaster / remix of the album. It has no string overdub>
Mark - My remaining question that I don't think has been addressed here - was the Remix of the Rock & Roll album also relesased in 1975? Or is it something that came out many years later? If later, then to me this version is just an alt mix. Otherwise, it would be like saying the mixes on the Beatles' "Let It Be Naked" should be listed in the database as album versions or something.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 04 May 2011 at 7:58pm | IP Logged
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I don't have the stock 45, but do have the DJ 45 and the original Rock 'N' Roll Apple LP, both of which I received from Capitol in 1975.
After dubbing the intros of the mono DJ 45 side, the stereo DJ 45 side and the LP track and listening to an A/B/C comparison of all three a good dozen times under headphones, my conclusion is that there are no differences between them at all. There is nothing that comes in prominently from :05 to :18 that isn't already there during the first five seconds of the song.
The mono DJ 45 sounds like it's a straight fold down.
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MMathews
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| Posted: 04 May 2011 at 9:17pm | IP Logged
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Hi again,
Edison to answer your Q; the album was remixed for the 2004 re-issue / re-master and added bonus tracks.
But don't confuse this 2004 remix with Ringmaster's original alert for the thread.
The alert is that (apparently) the original 1975 album mix is different from the 1975 45 mix.
and it now also may be per above post that perhaps only stock 45's contain the string overdub.
To clarify, Yah Shure, you are saying you hear no difference between your Lp or either side of the DJ 45, but i'm not sure if that means they all have the strings, or none of them do....
MM
-MM
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 05 May 2011 at 8:08am | IP Logged
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Well, based on everyone else's comments that the string synth overdubs were present on 45s, dj 45s and LPs, I'm assuming Yah Shure's copies have them, too. I think what's also been decided was that the first post in this thread is inaccurate - that the original 1975 album mix IS the same as the 45 mix. So, unless someone has an original 1975 LP with a different mix on "Stand By Me", there really was just one mix for the song - on LP, 45, dj 45, etc. - and that in 2004 an alt mix was made for the remix CD, much like the 2000's also had a "Let It Be ... Naked" CD, a totally remixed album - which would just mean that Pat would indicate the 2004 CD has an "alternate mix, not the 45 or LP mix". (But again, correct me if I'm wrong.)
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AndrewChouffi
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| Posted: 05 May 2011 at 8:23am | IP Logged
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To EdisonLite:
Keep in mind as a mentioned a few posts earlier that I have *A Capitol Re-Issue* vinyl LP that DOESN'T have the String Ensemble & that vinyl was issued (probably) in the early 80s.
Andy
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 05 May 2011 at 11:20am | IP Logged
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MMathews wrote:
| To clarify, Yah Shure, you are saying you hear no difference between your Lp or either side of the DJ 45, but i'm not sure if that means they all have the strings, or none of them do.... |
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Mark, I was only saying that the DJ 45 and the original Apple LP had identical intros. i.e. the DJ 45 and the 1975 Rock 'N' Roll vinyl LP track are not different. (EDIT: Correction: they actually ARE different, as Mark details further downthread.)
Having only ever heard one version of this track over the years, I dug out the only CD I have "Stand By Me" on (a circa-1990 Capitol issue of The John Lennon Collection) and found it to match both my DJ 45 and 1975 vinyl LP. I downloaded the Power To The People The Hits set, which Bill stated does NOT include the string/synth overdub, but found it to be no different from any of the others I'd compared above.
I'm reading about string ensembles or a string synth that "comes in clearly at the 0:05 mark," but I don't hear either. All I hear on all five of the versions I have is the same, somewhat-muted synth that begins at :00, changes chords at :04 and remains somewhat muted until the added synth flourishes at :14, just before John's vocal starts.
Ringmaster's initial assertion was that there was a 45/LP difference. Pat has already weighed in and said that he hears no difference between his 45 (commercial, I presume, Pat?) and original vinyl LP. I likewise hear no difference between my DJ 45 and original LP. Based on our findings, it would appear that the DJ and commercial 45s are therefore the same, and that there is therefore no 45/LP distinction in the original 1975 vinyl releases.
Ringmaster, was your initial 45/LP statement based on your own actual vinyl 45 and original Apple vinyl LP comparisons?
Edited by Yah Shure on 11 May 2011 at 8:44am
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MMathews
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| Posted: 05 May 2011 at 12:51pm | IP Logged
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Hmmm.
quite a turmoil over this one :-)
some of us are hearing these differences quite clearly, others do not hear it at all.
In some of the posts, i am seeing that the organ and the strings are being confused. The LP version and most Cd's have a clear organ in the intro, as well as the 2004 remix and of the LP.
But the CD's "Collection" and "Legend" have a overdub of very hi-pitched violins dubbed in as well, at a low volume.
I'm currently trying to scare up a vinyl 45 dub and LP dub so i can hear those as well.
All i know is, my CD findings agree exactly with Ringmaster's, and Bill Cahill's.
If i can prepare an easy file for comparison's, i'll send that around. . Stand by...
MM
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Ringmaster_D
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| Posted: 05 May 2011 at 1:03pm | IP Logged
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My initial observation was based only on CD sources of this material, as I do not own the original vinyl. I cross-referenced my findings with the "Eight Arms To Hold You" book by Chip Madinger which is perhaps the most respected source of all solo Beatles variations. Sure enough, the book confirmed that the additional synth string overdub was added specifially for the original (and re-issued) 45 releases. All Chip's research, by the way, is based on first-hand observation of original sources. I'll be anxiously awaiting MM's confirmation of this.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 05 May 2011 at 1:32pm | IP Logged
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Ringmaster: thanks for the further clarification. Once the lab results are in... :)
Mark: thanks for giving me an idea of what I should be listening for, as your "very high-pitched violins" clue was quite helpful.
And that just might be the key. As I mentioned in my very first post on this board (the nearest equivalent of the Hoffman Forum's equipment profile, perhaps) I do wear hearing aids. But I don't wear them while listening to or working on music, due to feedback issues with headphones.
So I really cranked the headphone level up to listen to a comparison one more time, knowing fully well that it would cause ringing in my ears for the next day or two. But even then, I couldn't pick up any differences. Are we talking a couple kiloHertz higher than even Mantovani's cascading strings, here? And why are the rest of you all baying at the moon? :)
Edited by Yah Shure on 05 May 2011 at 1:34pm
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Bill Cahill
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| Posted: 06 May 2011 at 10:35am | IP Logged
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On the above mentioned tracks that have the synth strings, listening with headphones, five seconds or so in the introduction, synth strings start dead center in the stereo stage.
The organ that starts with the song is more to the side.
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davidclark
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| Posted: 08 May 2011 at 6:03am | IP Logged
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well, after having it pointed out to me exactly what to listen for, and MM
sending me a sample of the beginning of the 45, original LP, (and remix), I
can now state that I hear the difference between the 45 and LP, although it is
probably the most subtle difference I have ever come across.
__________________
dc1
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MMathews
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| Posted: 09 May 2011 at 3:18pm | IP Logged
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Hi all again....
Yes, and many thanks to John Pratt, he was kind enough to send me a test file with the intro from his copy of the promo 45, both stereo/mono sides, the original vinyl LP, and the CD "Power To The People" (albeit the last sample was a download, but i'm sure accurate.)
Yes, folks this is indeed a hearing test- as it happens my upper mid-range and hi freq hearing is very sensitive, so to me this was easy to hear, but honestly this string overdub is exactly what David says, very subtle...and it's low in the mix, likely down about -10 db compared to the guitar.
Near as i could figure in my wave editor, the strings (or synth-string) occur in the 8-10k freq. range.
So:
-Both sides of DJ 45 HAVE the strings.
-The vinyl album does NOT have the strings.
-Neither mix/issue of the CD of the album has the strings.
Conclusion: 45 version different mix from LP version.
Cd's known (so far) to contain the 45 version:
John Lennon Collection
Legend
There ya have it - and thanks John, for sending the vinyl dubs and wow, very clean records and crystal clean dubs from them.
-Mark M
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 11 May 2011 at 9:03am | IP Logged
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Mark, thank you very much for your detailed analysis! Hearing test, indeed. <sigh> Also, thanks to Bill for the added listening tips.
I'm still scratching my head a bit over this one, though: Mark indicated to me that the string overdub falls within the 8 to 10 kilohertz range. Top-40 radio was still largely an AM medium in 1975, so why bother adding an 8-10kHz string to the 45, when it would have been well above the highest frequency response of most typical AM receivers then in use?
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Bill Cahill
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| Posted: 11 May 2011 at 7:52pm | IP Logged
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The synth may be on the multi track and just not mixed in for all versions. I notice on the Gimme Some Truth CD (which claims to be original LP mixes) the synth strings appear to fade up and can be heard slightly for a split second at :51 as John finishes the phrase "stand by me". Then the distorted refrain wipes out any evidence of it being on the song, but it may be there after that point to be felt, not heard. (So this version on "Truth", while missing the synth on the intro, appears to have some synth starting at :51.) On the 45 where the synth starts on the song intro, the synth can be heard all the way to that :51 point and then gets wiped out by the refrain, but it might be buried into the distortion on that mix too. On the actual remix that was done for some CDs (which has less distortion), the synth string does not pop on for that split second. And yes, these are DOG EAR notes.
Edited by Bill Cahill on 12 May 2011 at 4:33am
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 11 May 2011 at 11:48pm | IP Logged
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Yah Shure wrote:
I'm still scratching my head a bit over this one, though: Mark indicated to me that the string overdub falls within the 8 to 10 kilohertz range. Top-40 radio was still largely an AM medium in 1975, so why bother adding an 8-10kHz string to the 45, when it would have been well above the highest frequency response of most typical AM receivers then in use?
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In 1975, I was listening to pop radio on the FM dial only. (Actually, I was since 1972 - when I started listening to the radio.) By 1975 or 1976, I actually had a good stereo hi-fi (separate components) and not just FM on a radio. All my friends at this point were listening to FM stations, and in fact I didn't know a single person who listened to AM radio in my middle school. So to answer the above question, my guess is the label was aiming toward FM listeners and, considering John Lennon was such a major, important artist, that probably factored in as well. I would equate this to when stereo LPs were first being manufactured. Very few people had stereo systems then but labels were looking ahead to the future.
Still, it's such a minor mix difference in "Stand By Me", I can totally understand all the head scratching on this one :)
Edited by EdisonLite on 11 May 2011 at 11:50pm
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: John Lennon - Stand By Me
