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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 29 August 2011 at 6:44pm | IP Logged
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Interesting history with this song.
Dug out my commercial 45, Geffen 28562, 1986, "Edited from the Wang Chung album MOSAIC", printed 3:59 (no designation), actual 4:16, 128.8 BPM throughout.
The first instance of the 45 edit on CD was on Silver Eagle/Warner Special Products' 3-CD After Hours (1990). Unfortunately, this version has tape drag that slows it down at the end of the track. It starts off at 129.3 BPM and ends at 128.5 BPM. Not good.
There are a few others that use the same analog transfer as After Hours, including Razor & Tie's 2-CD Totally '80s (1993), Time-Life's Sounds Of The Eighties Vol. 4 1986 (1994; digitally identical to Totally '80s after the 0:38 mark), and JCI's Only Dance 1985-1989 (1995). All suffer from the same tape drag.
Bill Inglot did a new edit for on Rhino's 7-CD Like Omigod box (2002), based on the mastering for Mosaic. However, he missed the second edit (detailed below) and instead faded early. It's not the true 45 edit.
If you have the TM Century library, the version on GoldDisc 936 is a homemade edit done on a differently-EQ'd digital clone of Mosaic. The version on The A List Disc 34 is based on the TM edit. These are both the true 45 edit. They're not all that common, though, so in order to get the 45 edit with no tape drag and no clipping, you likely have to make your own.
The LP version first appeared on Geffen's Mosaic (1986), where it runs 128.8 BPM throughout. It sounds just fine with nice dynamic range, although the levels are a bit low and there's about 4 dB of headroom.
Lots and lots of discs use the same analog transfer as Mosaic, including Priority's Rock Of The '80s Vol. 4 (1993, too loud and clips), MCA's Greatest Rock Hits Of The '80s (1996), Universal's Retro Lunchbox Squeeze The Cheeze (1997, differently EQ'd digital clone), Simitar's Number Ones Party Time (1998), Madacy's Rock On 1987 Everybody Have Fun Tonight (1998, digital clone with added compression), Rhino's Millennium New Wave Party (1999, too loud and clips), and Time-Life's 2-CD Modern Rock Vol. 9 Mid-'80s (2000; digitally exactly 3.5 dB quieter than Rock Of the 80's Vol. 4).
The next analog transfer of the song was the 1997 Greatest Hits disc. It sounds surprisingly good for a 1997 disc: it's not severely compressed/limited, it has a reasonable EQ with a little more low end than Mosaic, and I couldn't hear any evidence of noise reduction on the fade.
There are digital clones of the GH on Universal's Pure '80s (1999; compression added and fade truncated by a few seconds) and Realm's 3-CD Greatest Hits Of The '80s Vol. 3 (2002; different EQ).
I'm going to base my editing instructions on the 1997 Greatest Hits disc, which I think sounds a tiny bit better than Mosaic for this track.
To recreate the 45 edit:
Keep the 404 beats from 0:00 to 3:09.2. Edit on the true downbeat following the line "spread the word".
Remove the 48 beats from 3:09.2 to 3:31.6.
Keep the 88 beats from 3:31.6 to 4:12.6. Edit on the true downbeat following the line "everybody have fun".
Remove the 16 beats from 4:12.6 to 4:20.1.
Keep from 4:20.1 to 4:46.8 (end).
Your mixdown will run 4:17.0 including outro silence, or about 4:16 without outro silence, and will have edits at 3:09.2 and 3:50.2.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 30 August 2011 at 6:52am
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Indy500
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| Posted: 31 August 2011 at 6:12pm | IP Logged
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How has the 12" version (12'' Inches Of Fun)(Jellybean Benitez Mix)avoided CD all these years?
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Fetta
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| Posted: 04 September 2011 at 11:36am | IP Logged
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If anyone is interested in hearing this, please let me know. I have a
needle drop taken from an unplayed mint promo 12".
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Steve Sharp
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| Posted: 05 September 2011 at 7:48am | IP Logged
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Fetta: I am. djstevesharp@gmail.
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Indy500
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Indy500 wrote:
How has the 12" version (12'' Inches Of Fun)(Jellybean
Benitez Mix)avoided CD all these years? |
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I found it !!
Dance Classics Pop Edition Vol 7 RDM249. And it sounds superb.
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mjb50
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| Posted: 12 May 2024 at 7:38am | IP Logged
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It is not possible to make the 45 version by editing the album version. They use slightly different mixes. Use headphones and compare the panning of the backing vocal tracks. Examples:
• Nick's ad-libs at 1:32, 1:45, 1:59, 3:16, 3:21, 3:26. The album mix has them dead center, the 45 has them panned left.
• At 3:31 the 45 pans a "whoo" right instead of center.
• At 3:45 the 45 pans a female ad-lib left and Nick's "oo yeah" right. The album puts them much closer together.
• Right before the seam at 3:50, a truncated backing vocal is panned hard right on the album, but is centered on the 45.
• There are a few more examples after that, including at 3:58, the album has a right-panned snippet of female vocal but the 45 has it centered (maybe even slightly left).
I have the 45 version on the actual US 45 (styrene pressing), as well as on the US promo 12". They play at the same speed. The 45 fades out at 4:11.3 (not 4:16 like Ron's), and the 12" fades out a little later, at 4:17.0. [edit: I mixed these up when posting. The 12" is 4:11, the 12" is 4:17.]
I have a rip of the Totally '80s CD which reportedly (by Ron above) has tape drag. However, I found that it keeps pace with the 45 quite well, and is actually slightly faster, ending up slightly under a half-second ahead before fading out 2 seconds too soon. *shrug*
Edited by mjb50 on 13 May 2024 at 7:11am
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 12 May 2024 at 2:07pm | IP Logged
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4:14
45pm
The run time of this 45 is 4:14 and seems to match the 45
version from After Hours which also runs 4:14.
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davidclark
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| Posted: 12 May 2024 at 7:44pm | IP Logged
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WOW! This news of these differences escaped my attention all these years. I
have the 2011 creation in my library, so I'll have to go back to the real 45
version now.
Since the version I have on CD, from Time-Life "Sounds Of The
Eighties 1986", has the tape drag toward the end, I ask did the 45 have that
too? If not, is there a 45 version on CD that doesn't?
Might be a job for the new database administrator to update the DB on this
one!
Edited by davidclark on 12 May 2024 at 8:28pm
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 12 May 2024 at 8:51pm | IP Logged
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45 version
There seems to be only one analog transfer out there for the true 45 version. It first appeared on Silver Eagle Records/Warner Special Products' 3-CD After Hours (1990). It runs 4:15, has a decent EQ, nice dynamic range, and does not show any signs of added noise reduction (no loss of high end on the fade).
At the time, the major labels sent the source material to Warner Special Products on analog reel-to-reel tapes. There must have been something screwy with the playback deck used for After Hours, because quite a few tracks on After Hours show tape drag in the last minute or so of the song. So in addition to not using the lowest-generation source tapes (the analog copy sent to WSP being at least one generation removed from the two-track mixdown tape), After Hours has tape drag issues. As much as I love After Hours due to its being one of the very first '80s pop collections on CD, I recommend seeking out other sources for the tracks when possible.
The same analog transfer as After Hours (tape drag and all) is used on:- Razor & Tie's 2-CD Totally '80s (1993) - tail of fade is about 1 beat shorter
- Time-Life's Sounds Of The Eighties Vol. 4 1986 - tail of fade is about 2 beats shorter
- JCI's Only Dance 1985-1989 - tail of fade is about 6 beats shorter
- Time-Life's retail-only Sounds Of The Eighties '80s Hits - tail of fade is about 7 beats shorter
We're pretty much stuck with the tape drag, since there really isn't any better alternative out there.
There's a different analog transfer on the rare promo CD set Warner Chappell Song Catalog (CDWC-6) (1991), which runs about 16 beats shorter than After Hours, cuts off the first few opening notes, but has a little less tape drag than After Hours. Avoid for this track.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 13 May 2024 at 5:07am
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mjb50
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Thanks for the update.
I'm unable to verify the tape drag issue. I have a couple of BPM counters, but I find they disagree with each other, as well as themselves, so I'm hesitant to place much faith in them.
John, that YouTube clip you linked is using a CD source, I think the Totally '80s mastering. I would not infer anything about the actual 45 length from that. People have a habit of misrepresenting things like that, showing pictures of vinyl records as the audio from a CD plays. I much prefer the clips where there's obvious vinyl noise or where you can see the record on the turntable.
However, I made a mistake when I said my 45 plays 4:11. It plays 4:17! It's the 12" that fades out at 4:11. What I said about the overall speed being almost identical to that of the CD mastering, though, is correct. I'm happy to share my transfer for further analysis.
David, to be fair, since the only differences are in how certain elements are panned, it's quite understandable that no one would notice. In fact, I feel I'm being quite the nitpicker here!
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PopArchivist
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mjb50 wrote:
Thanks for the update.
I'm unable to verify the tape drag issue. I have a couple of BPM counters, but I find they disagree with each other, as well as themselves, so I'm hesitant to place much faith in them.
John, that YouTube clip you linked is using a CD source, I think the Totally '80s mastering. I would not infer anything about the actual 45 length from that. People have a habit of misrepresenting things like that, showing pictures of vinyl records as the audio from a CD plays. I much prefer the clips where there's obvious vinyl noise or where you can see the record on the turntable.
However, I made a mistake when I said my 45 plays 4:11. It plays 4:17! It's the 12" that fades out at 4:11. What I said about the overall speed being almost identical to that of the CD mastering, though, is correct. I'm happy to share my transfer for further analysis.
David, to be fair, since the only differences are in how certain elements are panned, it's quite understandable that no one would notice. In fact, I feel I'm being quite the nitpicker here! |
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Many of us don't mind the nitpicking. Feel free to point out all differences when you can. It is appreciated.
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Bellenger1981
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Nitpicking? Not at all. That's what we are here
to discuss. Nice find!
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aaronk
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The tape drag Ron is referring to is a difference in speed when you compare the beginning vs. the end. It's not something I would've noticed with my ears, as it doesn't get to the point of sounding slow.
Given mjb50's observation that his 45 dub stays pretty well synced up, I wonder if that's not a problem with the CD but rather recorded on the single master that way. Also, the sound quality of this song on After Hours is pretty nice, in my opinion.
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Aaron Kannowski
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davidclark
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As Aaron stated, I never noticed the tape drag either. Not like with "Rinky
Dink" and "Le Freak" on some CDs.
And yes, we are all proud of our nitpicking - that's what we do best! lol
Edited by davidclark on 13 May 2024 at 6:21pm
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crapfromthepast
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Revisiting my post from a mere 13 years ago...
I'd played my commercial 45, Geffen 28562, on my Technics 1200 turntable, and discovered that it ran 4:16 and 128.8 BPM throughout. There's no tape drag on the source tape two-track mixdown.
On After Hours, it starts off at 129.3 BPM and ends at 128.5 BPM. That's a drop in speed of about 0.6%, which is not really noticeable over the course of the song. If you're beat-matching, you'll notice, but if you're just listening by ear, it'll sound just fine.
mjb - I still can't believe you found the difference between the LP and 45 mixes! That's an impressive piece of listening, especially since the rest of the mix sounds basically the same for the LP and 45.
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aaronk
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I had a chance to dub my promo 45 today. The CD version on After Hours definitely slows down and does not stay in sync with the 45. Again, it's not drastic.
I started by slowing down the CD by 0.364%, and the first half of the song stayed pretty much perfectly in sync. Starting around the 2:00 mark, the CD gradually slows down just enough that by the end, the two files are off by about one beat.
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NightAire
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I can't believe I'm being this OCD, but I guess we're all in this boat together...
Would it be correct to say that to match the original promo 45, you'd want to slow the entire "After Hours" copy down 0.364%, then starting about 2 minutes in to the end, use a dynamic speed increase (what Adobe Audition calls a "Gliding Stretch") to go from the reduced speed to a 0.6% increase in speed by the end of the file?
...yes, I'm really trying to get THAT close. No, nobody will notice or care but me. :-D
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kaqueno
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Regarding the edited version, a while ago I downloaded the
one digitized by DjPaulT and the sound is excellent, I
think it is no longer available for download.
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aaronk
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NightAire wrote:
I can't believe I'm being this OCD, but I guess we're all in this boat together...
Would it be correct to say that to match the original promo 45, you'd want to slow the entire "After Hours" copy down 0.364%, then starting about 2 minutes in to the end, use a dynamic speed increase (what Adobe Audition calls a "Gliding Stretch") to go from the reduced speed to a 0.6% increase in speed by the end of the file?
...yes, I'm really trying to get THAT close. No, nobody will notice or care but me. :-D |
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The trouble I ran into is that it's not a gradual slowdown. What I noticed is that there are spots where it slows down just a tiny bit and then remains constant for a while. I tried to correct the CD version as much as possible, but I'm sure it's not 100% perfect.
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Aaron Kannowski
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NightAire
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Aaron, I believe you've talked me out of it. XD
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Gene Savage
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Wang Chung - "Everybody Have Fun Tonight"
