Top 40 Music on Compact Disc: "Mr. Bojangles"

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Topic: "Mr. Bojangles" - Nitty Gritty Dirt Band

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EdisonLite
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Posted: 02 February 2007 at 11:00am \| IP Logged

Thanks Tom! Interesting -- amazing that you caught that. Those parts are played so closely that I don't think anyone would catch that unless they made an mp3 of each version on one channel and then listened! Other than the fact that it's not mono and then becomes a mono recording as soon as the vocals click in, it's really hard to tell that they're not the same -- with the exception that one of the versions has an extra guitar strum on beat 3, and the other version does not. And what's interesting about that is that neither my "Super Hits Vol. 4" (which contains the B-side version) nor my "Best Of" (EMI America CDP 7 46591 2, which contains the long version with "Uncle Charlie" prologue) -- have an extra guitar strum on Beat 3! Could the Curb version be unique? Also, in the mp3 you made, did you use the left channels of both recordings, the right channels of both, or make mono versions of both recordings first before creating this mp3?

Edited by EdisonLite on 02 February 2007 at 11:05am

EdisonLite
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Posted: 02 February 2007 at 11:08am \| IP Logged

Also, which version contains the extra guitar strum on beat 3? It's on the right channel of your mp3 in case anyone wants to click on your link to hear what this is. Since I'm not hearing this on Super Hits Vol.4, which therefore seems to be the same as the long version with "Uncle Charlie" prologue, is the Super Hits version actually just an edit of the A-Side and not the unique B-side version, as was suggested in an earlier post?

TomDiehl1
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Posted: 02 February 2007 at 11:55am \| IP Logged

Here is what I did:

The version from "Twenty Years Of Dirt" was folded to mono and put into the right channel. The version from "Super Hits Of The 70's: Have A Nice Day Vol. 4" was folded to mono and put into the left channel. During that time I had two versions of Adobe Audition open (one with each version) and was playing both at the same time to hear the total playing time difference of just the song. Overall, for just the song, the Twenty Years Of Dirt version was sped up by about 3 seconds. So I slowed it down and synced it up to the other version that i had open in my 2nd copy of Adobe Audition.

If you listen in headphones, you will hear that there is a guitar strum on not just beat 3, but beat 1 as well. That is in the version of the song with the Uncle Charlie introduction, as found on the Twenty Years Of Dirt cd, and that is the same as is on my copy of the 45. The Curb cd contains the exact recording as found on the B side of my 45, without the guitar strums on beats 1 and 3.

If I'm reading your last message correctly, are you saying that there is a cd with the Uncle Charlie prologue tacked on to the B side version of the song somewhere on cd ??

Edited by TomDiehl1 on 02 February 2007 at 11:55am

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BradOlson
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Posted: 02 February 2007 at 11:59am \| IP Logged

Tom Diehl is right in regards to the Curb Greatest Hits CD and the Twenty Years of Dirt CD on Warner Bros.

EdisonLite
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Posted: 02 February 2007 at 5:20pm \| IP Logged

Tom, yes now I hear the extra guitar strums on beat 1 as well as beat 3 of the intro in your mp3 sample.

<If I'm reading your last message correctly, are you saying that there is a cd with the Uncle Charlie prologue tacked on to the B side version of the song somewhere on cd ??>

Yes, exactly. On "Best Of" (EMI America CDP 7 46591 2, which contains the long version with "Uncle Charlie" prologue), there are no extra guitar strums on beats 1 & 3, so therefore, they took the B-side version and tacked it onto the Uncle Charlie prologue, and therefore this is not the "LP version with prologue" as is indicated in the 10th edition of Pat's book.

The only other place I have this song is on the CD "Rock Me Gently". Pat lists this as alternate take in the 10th edition book. This HAS the extra strums on beats 1 & 3. (Also, it's sped up much faster). So I wonder if a better description for the database/book (instead of "alternate take") is something along the lines of the "dj B-side". Pat, were there other reasons that made this an alternate take? I didn't listen closely or A-B. I just noticed the strums added, and the faster pitch, on a casual listen.

Edited by EdisonLite on 02 February 2007 at 5:22pm

EdisonLite
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Posted: 02 February 2007 at 5:51pm \| IP Logged

While on the subject of this song, I noticed that my CDs of this song have a distortion and crackly sound during the loud parts of this song, and my guess is that this is caused by all the years of playing the master tape for the various pressings. But does anyone with "audiophile" ears know -- is there a CD of this song that doesn't contain that distortion/crackle?

EdisonLite
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Posted: 02 February 2007 at 9:56pm \| IP Logged

MMathews (who contributes to this board) filled me in on what's going on here. Pat you'll probably want to take notes for the database. Turns out the version with the extra guitar strums is a remix done many years later.

MMathews writes --

there was a remix done when they were signed to Warner and it appeared on the album "20 years of dirt". "American Dream" was also remixed, by the way. Years ago i was less fussy about the sound and prefered the orig. mix of Bojangles for the wider stereo. But the Warner remix was very clean sounding. This question now had me curious to hear the Warner remix again. I never actualy compared them side by side, interesting. The intro has an extra acoustic guitar "strum" you can hear that is not audible in the original mix. Back then i thought it just had the complete strum and on the original it was clipped off, but i can hear now it's actually an overdub that was not present originally. On this newer mix, both guitars in the old intro are together on one channel, with this extra strum in the left channel. On the original the 2 from the right channel are simply mixed left/right, and that extra strum guitar is mixed out (or was recorded later). After the intro, all tracks used are the original tracks as recorded, just placed differently in the mix. They also EQ'd it more modern sounding, less mid-rangy. More 70's sounding, less 60's. Also, the remix was sped up a tad. (i only noticed this because i had to re-pitch it to drop it into a track to do a left/right synch comparison.)

EdisonLite
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Posted: 02 February 2007 at 10:02pm \| IP Logged

Actually Pat, you probably have nothing to change. What you called "alternate mix" on "Rock Me Gently" is exactly that.

In summary, I think there are 3 versions of this song on CD:

alternate mix
original mix with prologue
original mix without prologue*

*=on vinyl, this version is only found on the B-side promo

Is that an accurate summary?

MMathews
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Posted: 02 February 2007 at 11:32pm \| IP Logged

Hi Edison,

I had no idea this topic was going on when you emailed me about this track. I hadn't the remixed "20 Years Of Dirt" version in years, it was the only place i had heard the alternate mix, so I assumed it was made just for that album.
Then i went in to to see the database listing, and i noticed Pat lists the "Dirt" version accurately as a remix. Then i saw the one on "Rock Me Gently" listed as "alternate take".
I came in hear so i could point out to Pat that [as i just learned] the version on "Rock Me Gently" is the same remixthat is on "20 Years Of Dirt" - it's just sped up even more.
I ripped it from "Rock Me Gently" Cd, pitched it down and re-eq it (restoring the hi-end) and what you hear is the very same alternate mix.
So, since Pat is saying this mix was on the B-side of the 45, I'd assume it does pre-date the "20 Years" comp.
On that comp, as Tom D. asked, they took the Uncle Charlie prologue and tacked it onto this other mix.

So, i guess there's no alternate take, just 2 different mixes. Seems like one is the LP mix, intended to include the prologue.
The other seems to be intended as the 45 mix, which includes that minor extra acoustic guitar strum overdub in the intro, left channel. And seems this alternate, perhaps 45 mix is floating around in various speeds.
I pitched the Cd rip down to match the speed of the LP version and it now times out at 3:35.

Hope any of this helps!

-Mark M

aaronk
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 12:37am \| IP Logged

I'm thoroughly confused on this one, but I have only ever heard (and only own) the 3:34 version on 70's Hits Vol. 2 (Curb 77356)...

Edited by aaronk on 03 February 2007 at 12:48am

EdisonLite
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 2:14am \| IP Logged

Sorry to add to the confusion (and believe me, I'm confused, too) but it appears there are now 4 versions of this song. According to Tom Diehl, the only difference between his 2 versions are:

<It is literally just a 4 second difference. >

After that the recordings converge exactly. (Note one of the recordings has the 2 guitar strums in the intro.) And listening to his A-B link, they do converge after the intro.

But MMathews has a recording with 2 guitar strums in the intro yet the rest of the song is mixed differently than the A-side 45.

Pat, it looks like we're going to need your help here, since you have 2 different 45s including the promo 45 and the various CDs. Can your report your findings here? Are there 2 versions with the extra guitar strums in the intro -- one that only differs in the intro (as shown in Tom Diehl's recent A-B link) and one that has a different mix throughout, as described by MMathews as on "20 Years of Dirt"? And which of these (if either) is on the one dj 45 that has a 3:35 B-Side?

EdisonLite
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 2:18am \| IP Logged

On a completely unrelated note, Pat, whenever I post a note during the 6 months of Daylight Savings time, it always lists the time as an hour ahead of time. For instance, my last post says it was at 2:14 a.m. but it's 1:14 a.m. here. Does this only happen to people on the west coast? And then, why is it correct during the other 6 months of the year? Is it possible to fix this for future posts -- not that this is a major thing....

Edited by EdisonLite on 03 February 2007 at 2:18am

TomDiehl1
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Posted: 03 February 2007 at 6:51am \| IP Logged

As Tom Diehl firmly plants his foot in his mouth......

I just played my 45 of the song on both sides.....it isn't as I remember it from years ago (it's been maybe 7 years since I've played the 45)......the B side appears to be exactly the same as the A side, except without the prologue.

I suppose I should've done that first, as I was simply going by memory. But the 20 Years Of Dirt version IS an obvious remix (and i should've clarified, that while the biggest difference was in the first 4 seconds, it is a definite different mix of the song entirely with louder drums on it, at least).

It seems to me that there are in fact 4 versions of this song out there:

Stock/promo 45 A side (with prologue)
Stock/promo 45 B side (no prologue)
Remix with prologue
Remix without prologue

So that begs me to ask the question, what version was on the original LP ? The A side 45 version with the prologue ??

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Todd Ireland
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Posted: 14 March 2009 at 9:26am \| IP Logged

EdisonLite wrote:

I very recently picked up the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band's Uncle Charlie and His Dog Teddy CD (Capitol 41721) and I too notice the distortion and crackling during the song's louder passages. It sounds like some of the instruments and possibly the vocals may have been overmodulated during the recording session. That said, I'm wondering if this is the ultimate reason why the song was later remixed with cleaner sound?

Also, I know I asked this question previously in this thread, but for any of our esteemed DJ veterans here on the board who was spinning "Mr Bojangles" on the airwaves back in 1971... Did your station play the full version with the "Uncle Charlie and His Dog Teddy" spoken prologue? Chris Quinn reports his station only played this version between 7 p.m. and 6 a.m.

Edited by Todd Ireland on 14 March 2009 at 9:26am

crapfromthepast
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Posted: 17 February 2010 at 7:31pm \| IP Logged

Confusing, but I think I have this sorted out. Someone correct me if anything I'm about to say is wrong.

I know at least one version of the black-label Liberty 45 had the prologue, although I no longer have my beat-up childhood copy. I'm pretty sure the LP had the prologue, too, since that was the name of the album. Same mix, only with a prologue tacked onto the front. Fair to say that most radio stations probably skipped past the prologue, be it from LP, promo 45, or commercial 45.

So I consider the "hit" version to be the one on Have A Nice Day Vol. 4, which runs 3:34. Muddy/distorted mix, no prologue.

Any CD that has the song running around 3:34 is the original mix, minus the prologue.

Any CD that has the song running around 5:13 is the original mix, with the prologue.

For the 1986 album Twenty Years Of Dirt, they remixed the song, as was the fashion at the time. (Like the Monkees' "Daydream Believer" - ouch! - and Steve Hoffman's new mixes of the Steppenwolf hits from the Vintage Music CDs.) The remix includes two new guitar strums on beats 1 and 3 on the intro, which were presumably mixed out of the original mix.

Any CD that has the song running around 5:02 has this remix, with the prologue. I have it running 5:09 on Time-Life's Singers And Songwriters - 1970-1971 (2000). It's a tiny bit faster than than the original mix, and is about 2-3 seconds shorter in the non-prologue portion as a result.

Any CD that has the song running 3:23 is the new remix, minus the prologue, and sped WAY up. It has the same new strums on beats 1 and 3. I have it on Madacy's Rock On - 1971, where it runs about 5 seconds shorter than the comparable part of Singers And Songwriters - 1970-1971. Aside from the drastic pitch difference, it's the same performance/mix as the Singers And Songwriters version.

Edited by crapfromthepast on 17 February 2010 at 7:31pm

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Hykker
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Posted: 18 February 2010 at 6:38am \| IP Logged

Todd Ireland wrote:

Also, I know I asked this question previously in this thread, but for any of our esteemed DJ veterans here on the board who was spinning "Mr Bojangles" on the airwaves back in 1971... Did your station play the full version with the "Uncle Charlie and His Dog Teddy" spoken prologue?

To answer your year-old question, in 1971 I was a weekender at a small-market station in northern New England. I don't recall the PD indicating which was the "preferred" version, but most of the djs seemed to stick with the short version. Other (more structured) stations in larger markets in the area played the short version exclusively.

Edited by Hykker on 18 February 2010 at 6:39am

KentT
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Posted: 23 February 2010 at 2:30pm \| IP Logged

When I worked at WATO Radio in Oak Ridge, TN, the short
version was normally mandated. Exception was me if I needed
to change the FM automation tapes or do some repairs since
I was also assistant engineer and physically challenged.

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edtop40
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Posted: 07 January 2014 at 5:07pm \| IP Logged

was there ever a commercial 45 released stating on the
label a time OTHER than 5:15?

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Yah Shure
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Posted: 07 January 2014 at 6:01pm \| IP Logged

edtop40 wrote:

was there ever a commercial 45 released stating on the label a time OTHER than 5:15?

Not among the three stock copies I have, Ed:

Shelley styrene pressing, east coast
Plastic Products vinyl pressing, central
Allied styrene pressing, west coast

"5:15" on all three (and "3:35" on the flips.)

Edited by Yah Shure on 07 January 2014 at 6:03pm

sriv94
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Posted: 20 January 2014 at 8:43am \| IP Logged

So can the prologue on S&S: 1970-71 be tacked on to any existing version to create the correct (5:15) version?

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