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jimct
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| Posted: 13 December 2013 at 3:37pm | IP Logged
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Aaron, reading John's release sequence in his post, I initially thought
that, too. But then, when I browsed the song's label scans attachment
he provided, all of the non-Epic 45s had both the 1979 copyright date,
and the stock #s I'd originally documented.
Today, I acquired the 1982 Oink LP, that 80smusicfreak was thankfully
razor sharp to spot for us. (It went unsold at an expired eBay auction
last week, so I contacted the seller, who kindly reposted it for me, as a
"Buy It Now" item.) I have found only one other early 80s Oink 45 by the
duo - "Christmas Millionaire" (OK-RA47). It appears to have a 1983
copyright date (only a lowres scan is now available.) I also bought that
item today. No flip side info was noted or scanned, so I'll find out when
I receive it.
For us, the easiest solution here would be that the newly recorded
"Grandma..." was placed on this 45's B-side. (It's not unprecedented to
place an old hit as the B-side of a newer 45 release.) FYI, "Christmas
Millionaire" does not appear at all on their Oink/Epic LP.
If "Grandma..." does not appear as the B-side of "Christmas Millionaire",
I am then getting fairly close to concluding that Oink never actually did
re-issue "Grandma...." as a 45, in its re-recorded, 1982 incarnation,
and that the 1984 Epic 45 release was that version's initial single
release. More details to follow......
Edited by jimct on 13 December 2013 at 3:40pm
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 13 December 2013 at 6:25pm | IP Logged
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aaronk wrote:
jimct wrote:
At this moment, to me, the #1 most burning issue is to unearth further details of a possible (perhaps likely, even) second Oink 45, that features
exactly what would later appear on the Epic 34-04703 45. It would surely have a unique 45 stock #, right? |
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As I put all of the above information together, I'm pretty sure that #4 from John's list is exactly what you're looking for--the 1983 Oink "remake." Hopefully he can chime in to tell us for sure, but it would make sense if that 45 is what Epic reissued in 1984. |
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You are correct, Aaron. The 1983 Oink remake is the same version that Epic reissued in 1984, and I've added that clarification to my earlier post. As for the confusion Oink caused by retaining the 1979 release's catalog number, the answer probably rests with Grandma.
Interestingly enough, the Epic 45 doesn't sound nearly as good as the '83 Oink 45. It's cut a bit quieter, with highs and lows attenuated. The pig beats the eye in this race, even if the pressing quality isn't quite on par.
Jim, my promo copy of "Christmas Millionaire" is a double A-sider, on a green label, pressed on vinyl by PRC. It came in a clear plastic sleeve, to keep the record, its sleeve and the wraparound title card together.
I was never serviced with any Oink LP.
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jimct
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| Posted: 13 December 2013 at 11:50pm | IP Logged
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John, thanks a million for the "it states a 1979 copyright, it has the exact
same Oink stock # as the 1979 Oink pressing, it has the exact same 45
label wording (right down to the letter), but the Oink 45 that you show
actually includes the re-recorded version of 'Grandma...' that would soon
appear on the Epic 45" info. I can't say that I've had too many other
instances of a release scenario playing out quite that way (if at all), in my
extensive research travels - it's pretty counter-intuitive. But there's a first
for everything!
The only Oink 45 "incarnation" for "Grandma..." that I happen to own, but
that John didn't include in his very helpful photobucket 45 montage, is for
the cream-colored label Oink 45, which actually states "Oink" on the label.
Ironically, that happens to be the very first copy of it I ever owned - the
one I purchased from Abe, up in Albany, NY. However, there does appear
to be *one* distinguishing factor, though, between John's Oink 2984 45
and my Oink 2984 45 - the color used on the label. John's Oink 45 copy is
on a white label, whereas my Oink 45 copy is on a cream-colored label.
Might this label color difference be the *only* way to distinguish between
these two different Oink 45 recordings, short of playing them? That's how
it now looks to me......
Luckily, I bought 3 different "Grandma..."-related items on Friday
morning: The Oink LP, the "Christmas Millionaire" 45 (thanks for the
double A-side info, John; now I know what to expect there), and an Oink
2984 45 on the white label, simply because I didn't previously own a copy
of it on a white label. But I've just now learned, with John's latest post, is
that what I actually will be getting, when the latter arrives, will actually be
the later recorded version of "Grandma....".
(John, just as an aside, if were you looking to plug the one hole in your
own "Grandma...." collection, I currently see a cream-colored, Oink 4984
45, for $4.49, as eBay item 251389434513 - another merchant has a
copy for $4, but it happens to be offered by the *one* eBay merchant that
I've had multiple instances of them way overstating the actual condition of
their 45s, so buyer beware....)
Edited by jimct on 13 December 2013 at 11:53pm
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80smusicfreak
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| Posted: 14 December 2013 at 8:04am | IP Logged
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jimct wrote:
| Today, I acquired the 1982 Oink LP, that 80smusicfreak was thankfully razor sharp to spot for us. (It went unsold at an expired eBay auction last week, so I contacted the seller, who kindly reposted it for me, as a "Buy It Now" item.) |
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So, I actually helped make a contribution to your vast music collection, jimct??? Who'da thought??? :-) Glad you got it...
jimct wrote:
| Luckily, I bought 3 different "Grandma..."-related items on Friday morning: The Oink LP, the "Christmas Millionaire" 45 (thanks for the double A-side info, John; now I know what to expect there), and an Oink 2984 45 on the white label, simply because I didn't previously own a copy of it on a white label. |
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Since you now seem to be in "completist" mode when it comes to this Christmas classic, in the spirit of giving, I just thought I'd go ahead and point out that there's still another label variation of the 45 that you missed, and that's just from checking the two copies w/ the cream-colored labels on Oink 2984 that you steered Yah Shure toward!
Let's start w/ the $4.49 one you recommended, from eBay seller "nokomis_fan": Cream-label variation #1 Look at the very bottom of the label - the last line is an area code (707) phone no. for Oink, which represents the label's hometown of Windsor, CA...
Now let's go to the $4.00 one from eBay seller "annie3857", which I assume is "the *one* eBay merchant that [you]'ve had multiple instances of them way overstating the actual condition of their 45s": Cream-label variation #2 Again, look at the very bottom of the label on their copy - seems this one ALSO has an area code (415) phone no. (for San Francisco), in addition to that (707) no.! You really didn't notice that??? Seems your collection is still incomplete, jimct... ;-)
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jimct
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| Posted: 14 December 2013 at 2:37pm | IP Logged
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I will spare the good folks on this board a long reply to your latest
comments, since you're clearly looking for another fight. I've been down
this road with you before, and it's proven to be an unproductive waste of
my time.
My intention was to PM you instead, but then I thought, "Why bother?"
Once again, I hope your latest comments made you feel better about
yourself, 80smusicfreak. You maintaining a healthy level of self-esteem is
very important to me.
I will simply allow my 3500+ posts to speak for itself, regarding both my
personal collection and my research abilities, and allow you to think
whatever you like, good or bad, about my board contributions.
I know that I don't happen to know everything. So how lucky is it for all of
us that you do!
Thanks again for your Oink LP assistance.
Edited by jimct on 14 December 2013 at 2:38pm
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80smusicfreak
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| Posted: 14 December 2013 at 3:53pm | IP Logged
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(*sigh*) In no way did I intend for my last post to be confrontational, jimct. So I apologize if it might have come across that way. (Geez, I even said "peace" at the end of my post to you yesterday.) I'm certainly a "completist" when it comes to certain artists, too, no question about it! And I really was being genuine about the size/scope of your music collection - while I've always admitted I'm not a huge fan of vinyl, that doesn't mean I don't think I'd have a blast if I could spend a whole day looking through it. :-) I honestly thought I'd spotted something new that would interest you (didn't say I already knew about it), because the label difference immediately jumped out at me when I checked the listings on eBay...
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jimct
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| Posted: 14 December 2013 at 4:34pm | IP Logged
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My bad then, 80smusicfreak...sorry. The tenor of an e-mail is sometimes
difficult to discern, as opposed to a conversation, where there's both voice
inflection and facial expression to assist with "intent." I really thought I was
sensing some "snarky" there - so glad I was mistaken. This board has always
been, by far, the most civilized one I know. I appreciate that.
All is well. Until next time, kind sir! :)
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 14 December 2013 at 4:57pm | IP Logged
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Jim, thanks for providing the information about that cream-colored label eBay listing, but I've done a tremendous amount of research on the subject, from which I've determined that admitting to owning any more than five copies of "Grandma" tends to make other people look askance at said individual in public, in addition to insisting that their kids maintain a safe distance of at least a hundred yards. This would cause a major scene at the Mall of America this time of year. Security tends to frown on such things, and, unlike the individual who recently tossed a thousand $1 bills from the fourth floor of the mall's rotunda - unannounced - on Black Friday, I'd rather not risk being banned for a year. Therefore, I must sadly leave any further detective work to you. ;)
There is another factor to consider in sorting this all out: the private-press aspect of the Oink 45(s). Like any other small-scale performers on a shoestring budget, Elmo 'N'/'n/& Patsy pressed up just enough copies to satisfy demand, based on their gigs and distributor/retail orders over the course of several years. That meant an initial pressing run of 500, then perhaps another 500, maybe another thousand or two, etc. Consequently, they would farm out their business to various manufacturers, depending on how many copies they needed at any given time and the associated per-unit costs (of the three Oink label 45s I have - including "Christmas Millionaire" - each one is pressed by a different manufacturer.)
When it came time to re-record "Grandma," it probably made sense to E&P/Oink to retain the original catalog number and matrix numbers. It wasn't as though they had a plethora of other Oink singles vying for the marketplace; all they really cared about was having a record of "Grandma" available. Elmo no doubt felt that the re-recording significantly trumped the original, making it a better, more accurate representation of how the duo's sound had evolved, in addition to giving Oink a legs-up on the older version Soundwaves/NSD was still actively marketing. From a forward-thinking artist's standpoint, it made perfect sense: the new "Grandma" was the only one that mattered henceforth. Just be thankful Elmo didn't team up with Richard Carpenter!
Given the press-on-demand nature of the Oink single, the white label copy you bought might not necessarily be the same version as the one I have. Remember that Clickettes record I mentioned upthread? "Grandma" on Oink is a much bigger roll of the "dice" than even that record. We're talking Forrest-Gump's-box-of-chocolates territory here. "Grandma" is arguably the textbook example of a truly grassroots-level recording effort that took several years, two versions and three different distribution channels to evolve and snowball into the runaway hit it became. It's a fascinating story, and we may never know exactly how many different incarnations of the Oink pressing there actually were. As you said, Jim, there's a first for everything.
I'd say the most reliable way to determine an Oink 45's true lineage is by playing it. It's almost like sorting out the hog market reports on the radio years ago. Attention: Elmo and Richard Carpenter! Here's your next hit: "Barrows, gilts and grandmas always get me down...." ;)
Edited by Yah Shure on 14 December 2013 at 5:07pm
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 15 December 2013 at 7:04am | IP Logged
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<Just be thankful Elmo didn't team up with Richard Carpenter!>
I wonder what some of their titles would be like ..
Top Of the Reindeer
Goodbye to Grandma
(They Long To Be) Close to Elmo
Please Mr. Reindeer
We've Only Just Begun To Run Grandma Over
Calling Grandmas of Interplanetary Craft
I Won't Last a Day Without Patsy
All You Get from Love is a Reindeer
Touch Me When We're Running (Over Grandma)
And excerpts of lyrics would include:
*You can say there's no such thing as an unaltered, un-remixed Carpenters recording (but somewhere in the deep vaults, it exists)
*Don't you remember I wanted private-press baby,
you said you could only find an Epic disc baby,
baby 'though I'd settle for Soundwaves baby,
I love Oink,
I really do!
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 15 December 2013 at 9:44am | IP Logged
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Gordon, those are hilarious!!
The video of "Calling Grandmas" could easily be set in a retirement community. Golf carts masquerading as UFOs... I'm in!
Looking forward to the CD. ;)
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jimct
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| Posted: 15 December 2013 at 10:29am | IP Logged
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I sense the genesis of still another international hit, for our resident, already
award-winning songwriter (Gordon), in this very thread!!!!
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 15 December 2013 at 10:35pm | IP Logged
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As long as Richard C. doesn't get his hands on Gordon's
recording and remixes it, we're good. :)
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 17 December 2013 at 6:38am | IP Logged
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lol. BTW, last night, I was looking at the tv guide and had to laugh when I saw at 8 p.m. was "Grandma Got Run Over By a Reindeer" - a one-hour cartoon.
Oh, and it was (possibly) yet another recording of the song. It wasn't the famous version, and I'm guessing it was one of the '90s recordings Elmo (& Patsy?) did.
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Steve Carras
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| Posted: 17 December 2013 at 5:45pm | IP Logged
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EdisonLite wrote:
<Just be thankful Elmo didn't team up with Richard Carpenter!>
I wonder what some of their titles would be like ..
Top Of the Reindeer
Goodbye to Grandma
(They Long To Be) Close to Elmo
Please Mr. Reindeer
We've Only Just Begun To Run Grandma Over
Calling Grandmas of Interplanetary Craft
I Won't Last a Day Without Patsy
All You Get from Love is a Reindeer
Touch Me When We're Running (Over Grandma)
And excerpts of lyrics would include:
*You can say there's no such thing as an unaltered, un-remixed Carpenters recording (but somewhere in the deep vaults, it exists)
*Don't you remember I wanted private-press baby,
you said you could only find an Epic disc baby,
baby 'though I'd settle for Soundwaves baby,
I love Oink,
I really do! |
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LOL! Love it!
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musicmanatl
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On a lighter note, I fairly certain I remember how this record spawned a local parody in New Orleans back in '82 or '83. The sheriff for Orleans Parish, Charles Foti, was arrested for drunk driving around that time (although in true New Orleans fashion, this didn't derail his political career in the slightest). B-97, the big top 40 in the market, played a version called "Grandma Got Run Over By Charles Foti". I wish I could remember the words, but this is just one aspect of New Orleans I love. lol
Frank
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80smusicfreak
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| Posted: 20 December 2013 at 6:16pm | IP Logged
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jimct wrote:
My bad then, 80smusicfreak...sorry. The tenor of an e-mail is sometimes
difficult to discern, as opposed to a conversation, where there's both voice
inflection and facial expression to assist with "intent." I really thought I was
sensing some "snarky" there - so glad I was mistaken. This board has always
been, by far, the most civilized one I know. I appreciate that.
All is well. Until next time, kind sir! :) |
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For the record, as I often do w/ people I like - or at least feel I know fairly well - when speaking w/ them face-to-face, I admittedly like to use a lot of sarcasm. At times, that translates into my writing style as well, which I guess got lost in the interpretation of that post of mine, jimct. And as further proof that I wasn't "looking for another fight", since I just received it in the mail today (hence the wheels were already in motion prior to my misconstrued post), I'll now come forward and admit that I "secretly" made an Elmo & Patsy purchase of my own last weekend! :-) You see, while performing that same search on eBay back on Thursday the 12th - which netted the discovery of the original Oink pressing of the Grandma Got Run Over By a Reindeer LP that I posted the link to, and you ultimately bought (has it arrived yet???) - I spotted what I strongly suspected was another interesting E&P item, so I bought it for myself. It arrived earlier today, and I'm now happy to report that my suspicions were confirmed. It turns out the original 1982 pressing on Oink 8223 exists on cassette as well. :-) Over the years, I've probably seen nearly a thousand copies of the 1984 re-issue on Epic 39931 on cassette, but never bought it, even though I've always liked the title track. So last week I decided to also check the cassette listings for the album on eBay, and lo & behold, one seller's listing jumped out at me when I saw the photo, as it clearly had a slightly different cover from the Epic pressings. That told me it had to be one of two things: either it was an import, or a very rare original 1982 Oink pressing. So w/o asking the seller any questions/details about it, I decided to go w/ my gut, and made the purchase - and sure enough, it proved to be the original U.S. Oink pressing! Here's the listing for it w/ the cover photo: Original 1982 Oink cassette And here's what the Epic re-issue looks like, just in case anyone wants to compare the (slight) differences: 1984 Epic re-issue cassette One other interesting side note: The original Oink vinyl LP features "Percy, the Puny Poinsettia" as track 3 on Side One, w/ "Joy to the World" as track 2 on Side Two - yet on the cassette version, those two tracks are reversed. But at any rate, I can now say that I own an original Oink pressing of the album as well (and of course, it doesn't exist on CD!)... :-)
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jimct
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| Posted: 20 December 2013 at 6:36pm | IP Logged
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Yes, 80smusicfreak, all my purchases have arrived, just in the "St. Nick" of
time, for the big day this year! (And congrats to you on your rare Oink
cassette score!)
-The 1982 Oink LP that your skilled "eagle-eye" first spotted is now in my
possession. Excellent condition. I'm very happy to own it.
-And, much to my relief, that white label, Oink 2984 45, with "Christmas"
still as its flip side, is, despite the 1979 copyright on its label, the same as
Yah Shure's copy is: the re-recorded version that would appear two years
later, in 1984, on Epic. (deadwax info "8201S-A", followed by
"15423(3)+").
I now believe that all the questions I'd initially asked, despite getting
myself a bit derailed, facts-wise, along the way, have now been answered.
And with that, I say, "My thanks to all, and to all a good night......"
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TomDiehl1
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I've been having quite the discussion on this recording
on two other websites lately.
In, what I assume is order of release, I have the disc on
the following labels:
Elmo 'n' Patsy (aka Oink? aka Kim-Pat?) (first recording)
Oink (tan label with black print, first recording)
Soundwaves (first recording, same stampers as the Oink
tan label) [apparently from all that I have read since 9
am this morning is that there is a second Soundwaves
pressing that uses the same stampers as the Elmo 'n'
Patsy/Kim-Pat 45, which I have not ever come across, but
at least two people seem to indicate as owning]
Oink (white label with red print, Epic re-recordings) [I
was too tired reading through everything this morning so
I don't think I ever saw it officially answered... did
the Oink LP for GGROBAR contain the remakes of both
sides? If so, there might be some quasi-legitimacy to
this white label Oink pressing, but if Soundwaves had the
originals out still, there would be a lot of confusion]
Wikipedia is wrong in saying that the Oink 45 contains
the re-recordings, strictly speaking, as only one
pressing of it seems to contain the re-recordings...and
whether or not it's a legitimate pressing is another
thing.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Elmo & Patsy-Grandma Got Run Over By...
