Top 40 Music on Compact Disc: Roy Orbison

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Topic: Roy Orbison - Oh, Pretty Woman

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TomDiehl1
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Posted: 17 June 2006 at 1:56am \| IP Logged

On the Both Sides Now stereo chat message board there has been some discussion about the mono single vs. stereo album versions of Oh, Pretty Woman. A poster on there says that Pat lists the version on the 16 Biggest Hits cd:

as being the stereo album version, and that most mono copies on cd turn into stereo for the last two seconds. My copy of this cd, which is packed away somewhere right now, definitely is mono from beginning to end and is the exact single version. I had even sent an mp3 of the song to a friend of mine a while back and tonight asked him to confirm that the mp3 was mono all the way through and he said it was, and that it was the correct single version.

Just thought I'd bring that to your attention.

Tom

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Pat Downey
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Posted: 17 June 2006 at 6:07am \| IP Logged

I agree that this is the single version and that it is not stereo. Actually all versions that are listed as mono in the database are mildly rechanneled which shows up on an oscilloscope trace. The last :02 of those show up vividly on the oscilloscope trace as being stereo and that's what my ears tell me also.

Edited by Pat Downey on 17 June 2006 at 6:16am

Bob Lovely
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Posted: 21 June 2006 at 2:46pm \| IP Logged

The single version of this track is a fold-down. In this case, the fold-down was the hit. There is no dedicated Mono mix.

Bob

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Paul Esch
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Posted: 21 June 2006 at 3:26pm \| IP Logged

So this, of course, begs the question-are Roy's other early 60's
singles on Monument fold-downs from the stereo versions? The
exception would be "In Dreams" which, according to the database, is
a different version.

Brian W.
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Posted: 21 June 2006 at 4:58pm \| IP Logged

But, Bob, isn't Pretty Woman the one that has a different vocal overdub at one point?

But, yes, the mono versions of his Monument recordings produced by Bill Porter were fold-downs, as were most of Bill Porter's work in the 1960s. That's the way he worked. Porter said so in his liner notes for the DCC "Elvis 24 Karat Hits" CD.

But beware -- many CDs contain remixes of Orbison's work. I've been told "All Time Greatest Hits" contains the original stereo mixes.

Edited by Brian W. on 21 June 2006 at 5:04pm

TomDiehl1
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Posted: 22 June 2006 at 12:27am \| IP Logged

Brian W. wrote:

But, Bob, isn't Pretty Woman the one that has a different vocal overdub at one point?

Oh, Pretty Woman is one of the songs that has one line replaced. In Dreams also has one line replaced in the mono mix as well (actually, i should say, each has one line replaced in the stereo mixes, as the mono mixes came out first). The songs were recorded to 3-track and 4-track and they were indeed simple fold downs, but they were recorded well and there was never a need to have the tracks remixed (which is one reason i dont like my 16 Biggest Hits cd, theyre not the great original mixes).

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Bill Cahill
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Posted: 24 June 2006 at 8:13am \| IP Logged

I don't have the 16 Biggest Hits CD but I've noticed that most "single" lyric issues of this song have two problems with them in comparison to the original 45. 1) The stereo imaging added at the very end. 2) The entire song sounds like a mono fold down of a duophonic (doubled) style stereo effect that somebody did to it at some point. Why put it in phoney stereo when it was also mixed to stereo? Who knows? But when the Oribson box was produced (unfortunately by Sony Special Products and NOT Legacy) it appears nobody could find the original mono mix but that doctored up version was lying around so maybe it"summed" to mono. But as Pat notes, it also is slightly in "electronic stereo" so maybe somebody ran it through a second simulator. Or, the first simulator was just really bad. In any event, my question: Does the 16 Biggest Hits version sound like it has some doubling going on or is it really the undoctored mono single version?

Pat Downey
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Posted: 25 June 2006 at 6:59pm \| IP Logged

Bill it is the slightly electronic version and not the real mono single version on 16 Biggest Hits.

Bob Lovely
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Posted: 26 June 2006 at 1:57pm \| IP Logged

Brian W. wrote:

But, Bob, isn't Pretty Woman the one that has a different vocal overdub at one point?

Brian, one vocal line was overdubbed, yes. Otherwise, the "hit mix" is a fold-down of the original 1963 Stereo mix. The common Stereo mix we have all heard was executed in 1969. The 1963 Stereo mix has never been released on CD but, it was issued on vinyl as mastered by Steve Hoffman for S&P records. The 1963 mix is not much different than the 1969 mix except that it is just a tad wider.

Quote:

But, yes, the mono versions of his Monument recordings produced by Bill Porter were fold-downs, as were most of Bill Porter's work in the 1960s. That's the way he worked. Porter said so in his liner notes for the DCC "Elvis 24 Karat Hits" CD.

This is correct. There are many examples whereby a fold-down was the "hit mix". Bill Porter also engineered many of the Everly Bros. early 1960's recordings that were recorded in Nashville. These hits are also fold-downs.

Bob

Edited by Bob Lovely on 26 June 2006 at 2:00pm

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Todd Ireland
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Posted: 26 June 2006 at 6:40pm \| IP Logged

Just curious... Does anyone have the seven-disc Roy Orbison Orbison import box set released on the Bear Family label? If any collection would contain the correct mono single mix of "Oh Pretty Woman", I imagine this one would! Bear Family has a stellar reputation for hunting down the correct versions of songs they issue on CD.

Edited by Todd Ireland on 26 June 2006 at 6:41pm

TomDiehl1
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Posted: 28 June 2006 at 4:50pm \| IP Logged

Pat Downey wrote:

Bill it is the slightly electronic version and not the real mono single version on 16 Biggest Hits.

Finally found my copy....basically what Ive been told about the rest of the songs on this cd (and maybe it applies to this one too), Ron Furmanek remixed the songs from the multitracks and added a lot of echo to them that was not on the original mixes, mono or stereo. Part of me wants to suggest that that could be what happened on Oh Pretty Woman on this cd (i admit that what i originally thought was on this cd actually ended up not being on here, so i was wrong there), but that still doesnt explain why the bulk of the sound is mono (or near mono) and switches to stereo right at the very end. Very confusing....but there should be a cd of the original mono versions put out, just to set the record straight since at least two songs have one-line variations between mono and stereo mixes.

Edited by TomDiehl1 on 28 June 2006 at 4:52pm

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aaronk
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Posted: 21 December 2007 at 12:37am \| IP Logged

Brining an old topic back up, because I was finally able to hear with my own ears exactly what all three versions sound like.

Tom, I think you might have answered your own question of why the end switches to stereo. Whomever engineered this version added reverb to it, and the ending reverb that they added is in stereo. In fact, I'm guessing all of the reverb is in stereo, which is why it appears to sound like rechanneled stereo.

(I have evidence to back up my belief: When you invert one of the channels and sum them both to mono, you're left with only a whole bunch of reverb. When you do this to a true mono source, the channels summed together will cancel each other out and you won't hear anything at all.)

I agree that the stereo versions on CD folded down sound much more like the mono 45 (except for the alternate lyric). When you compare the actual 45 with the rechanneled stereo (aka "mono with stereo ending"), the latter sounds like Roy's vocals are being sung in a tunnel. And to reiterate, the ending reverb on the rechanneled version does not match the stereo LP or the mono 45 reverb; however, the stereo LP and mono 45 have the same reverb on the ending.

Edited by aaronk on 21 December 2007 at 12:44am

aaronk
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Posted: 07 January 2009 at 6:00pm \| IP Logged

Todd Ireland wrote:

I just verified with a friend of mine who has this set that it does contain the mono mix of "Oh Pretty Woman." That's good news if you also need the rest of the songs on the 7-disc set.

MMathews
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Posted: 24 March 2014 at 4:31pm \| IP Logged

I read about the one line being different years ago - can anyone refresh my memory? What is the line that different on the mono 45, and where does it occur?

And is that the only difference?

Thanks

Yah Shure
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Posted: 24 March 2014 at 4:55pm \| IP Logged

Mark, it's a one-word difference that comes at the 1:41 mark (on the 45, at least) during the last line of the bridge:

'Cause I need you, I'll treat you right
Come to me baby, be mine tonight.

It's "come with me baby..." on the LP version.

MMathews
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Posted: 25 March 2014 at 12:23pm \| IP Logged

Thanks for the refresher. Most intriguing difference.
MM

crapfromthepast
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Posted: 25 March 2014 at 8:03pm \| IP Logged

Neat! I don't think I've ever heard the "come to
me" lyric before.

I have this song on ten compilations. Nine of them are
in stereo and have the "come with me" lyric.

The tenth is a 3-CD set on Realm called Greatest Hits
Of The '60s Vol. 1 (1995). It has the "come to me"
lyric at 1:41. Here, the song is in mono, except for the
last two seconds of reverb being in stereo. The stereo
kicks in abruptly, after the last note is hit, and it's
just reverb. It also sounds like it's a fold-down of the
stereo mix, reverb and all. A mess, actually.

I have a file from Aaron labeled as "mono single
version", and it sounds far better than this fold-
down mono version. Aaron's "mono single version" is
crisp, with very well-defined instruments, and no
overpowering reverb throughout. I assume that Aaron's
file is from the true 45, and that the true 45 version
hasn't been released on CD?

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aaronk
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Posted: 25 March 2014 at 8:27pm \| IP Logged

Ron, yes it finally debuted on CD a couple years ago on the "Monument Singles" disc, which is where my copy comes from. The previous CDs with the 45 lyrics contained the mono version but with a large amount of stereo reverb added.

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MMathews
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Posted: 30 July 2019 at 11:09pm \| IP Logged

I can add some info to all this. I was real curious about
this one-word difference between the stereo and mono,
which to me makes no sense. I did not believe they went
out of their way to change a word - in either version.

So I sync'd the 2 versions together. It's amazing what
you can learn by putting them in exact sync. I now
believe this was a simple accident of splicing in the
wrong place.

First, we need to clear up this "last :02 are stereo"
thing that appears in the database on many (M) entries.
This is not correct. What Aaron said above is correct.
Some joker at Sony took the mono 45 master and added
stereo reverb throughout the whole thing, and then at the
very end turned the reverb up loud for the big finish. So
there is NO stereo at the end, just louder (E). For
accuracy, all these entries should be changed to (E) and
the last comment removed.

Now, after syncing the real mono mix with the stereo mix
(folded to mono) I found some splice points. The first
splice is at 1:06 just before the words "pretty woman
stop awhile"....but the takes remain the same they just
jump out of sync at that splice point. That tells me
they spliced this song together from more than one take
and the first switch to another take happens at 1:06 in
both the mono and stereo.

The next splice (in one of the versions) is at 1:42 just
before the line "come with [to] me baby" and right after
it at 1:46 where the 2 versions once again begin to
match.

This tells me the reason the line is different between
the 2 versions is that when they were editing the takes
together for the stereo, the engineer made a simple error
and cut either too early or too late to switch to the
other take. This was not intentional and no, no special
words were overdubbed.

Lastly, there is one more splice! At 2:53 the finishing
words "pretty woman!" do not match, so that finish in the
mono was yet another splice to another take. They just
didn't bother to change it in the stereo.

I applaud the engineers/producer for attempting to do the
same editing job to present the stereo to be the same
"hit" takes as the mono ... they just missed a couple of
minor details - hence the minor differences in the two
versions.

There ya have it.

MM

crapfromthepast
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Posted: 31 July 2019 at 9:17am \| IP Logged

Nice work, Mark!

Being a little off in the edit points makes much more sense than specifically rerecording a word or a line.

There are plenty of other examples of multiple takes being edited together to get the final version of the song: "She Loves You", "Soul Man", "Strawberry Fields Forever", and those are just examples that start with "S"!

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