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edtop40
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| Posted: 23 June 2013 at 5:33am | IP Logged
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my commercial 45 for the three dog night song 'joy to the
world' issued as dunhill/abc 4272 lists a run time on the
label as 3:17 but actually runs 3:20....jim, can you
check your 45 run time info for verification?.....the cd
'the
complete hit singles' dumps the song early (3:14).....in
addition, this cd collection is pitched faster
than the vinyl 45.....the last lyrics heard on this cd
are 'joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea'....while
the vinyl 45 goes longer as 'joy to the fishes in the
deep blue sea, joy to you and me, i want to sing it'
.....this 45 run time info s/b added to the db.....i
don't hear the words "i want to sing it' during any of
the chorus
in the song, so it can't even be re-created by are
resident editing experts....and this, being the number
one song from
1971!!.....btw....who puts these cd collections together
where they can't double check the proper versions that
they compile together....very frustrating....maybe that
can be my next job after i retire from wall street!...
.....a professional music double checker..
Edited by edtop40 on 23 June 2013 at 5:56am
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Fetta
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| Posted: 23 June 2013 at 12:09pm | IP Logged
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Ed..... you're hired! :-)
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TomDiehl1
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| Posted: 23 June 2013 at 3:33pm | IP Logged
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Since the cd would have almost certainly used a disc dub for the single version, it doesn't surprise me in the least that the song would dump out a few seconds early....
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jimct
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| Posted: 23 June 2013 at 4:26pm | IP Logged
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Ed, my stock 45's runtime is exactly like yours is: listed (3:17); actual (3:20).
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aaronk
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| Posted: 23 June 2013 at 9:25pm | IP Logged
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TomDiehl1 wrote:
| Since the cd would have almost certainly used a disc dub for the single version, it doesn't surprise me in the least that the song would dump out a few seconds early.... |
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This brings up a really good point, which is one that I mentioned in another thread a long time ago. There are some mono Three Dog Night singles that have made it onto CD. I've never suspected them to be dubbed from vinyl, but maybe they were. Just now, I listened to "Joy To The World" from the Celebrate compilation. I don't hear any vinyl rumble, but there are some mysterious clicks here and there. There are also some places that could possibly be groove distortion, but I can't say for sure. If this CD does contain a vinyl dub, the mastering engineer did a really great job.
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edtop40
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| Posted: 24 June 2013 at 8:49am | IP Logged
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if they DID use a vinyl copy on their cd re-issuance, why would the pitch be off?
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aaronk
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| Posted: 24 June 2013 at 9:27am | IP Logged
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Ed, it could be for any number of reasons. Perhaps the turntable ran too fast, or perhaps they dubbed it into an audio editor (these things did exist as early as the late '80s) and then back to a new master tape.
Of course, it may not be a vinyl dub at all, and perhaps the clicks and pops are part of the master tape it was taken from. One thing that is still puzzling, though, is why the Three Dog Night mono tapes would have survived when all the others were dumped.
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Bill Cahill
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I think that Three Dog Night continues to be a long running lease, so they may own their own masters.
Also I know that there are a ton of boots that were made on "Joy To The World", using the black ABC Dunhill label.
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The Hits Man
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| Posted: 25 June 2013 at 8:08pm | IP Logged
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TomDiehl1 wrote:
Since the cd would have almost
certainly used a disc dub for the single version, it
doesn't surprise me in the least that the song would dump
out a few seconds early.... |
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"Joy To The World"
mono single is one of the very few songs that exist on
tape.
edtop40 wrote:
if they DID use a vinyl copy on their cd
re-issuance, why would the pitch be off? |
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Well, that would require taking a look at the running
time of the CD in question. It could be that in order to
cram all the songs they wanted on the CD, they slightly
sped up the tape and faded the song early. It sounds
very much like what they did to the last Elton John comp.
Edited by The Hits Man on 25 June 2013 at 8:12pm
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Paul C
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My understanding of the ABC/Dunhill tape purge is that just about everything was tossed except for the reels containing the stereo LP masters; which means that what was also spared was anything else that happened to be on those reels. The likely reason that tapes of some Three Dog Night 45 versions have survived is that they happened to be on the saved reels. In the case of artists as The Mamas And The Papas, tapes of the 45 versions did not survive the purge because they were most likely on the mono LP reels. (I don't believe any of the Three Dog Night albums were issued in mono.)
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EdisonLite
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And didn't all the ABC/Dunhill tapes get destroyed in the Universal fire of 2008? So if it wasn't transferred to CD by that point, any recording would be gone now. Leaving vinyl transfers as the only option.
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The Hits Man
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| Posted: 26 June 2013 at 1:52pm | IP Logged
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Anyone ever wonder if the people who threw those
ABC/Dunhill tapes out are still around, and what they
think of their boneheaded decision today?
I have long ago stated that collectors need turntables to
help preserve our recorded legacy that the labels didn't.
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bitman
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But...what about the rumors of mono copies existing in Europe somewhere? Seems those stories pop up from time to time.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 27 June 2013 at 10:14am | IP Logged
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If I'm not mistaken, someone posted here on the board that Sundazed used a
European mono LP tape for The Mamas & The Papas release from a year or
two ago.
Also, just recently, the entire Steppenwolf catalog was reissued in Japan with
the mono singles as bonus tracks on each album. Unfortunately, though,
one of our resident board experts said that after giving them a quick, cursory
listen, it sounded like those mono single bonus tracks were vinyl dubs. It
seems like they would have attempted to find tape sources for these re-
releases if they might be archived somewhere.
If anyone owns the Steppenwolf discs, I would be curious to know if they
think the mono singles are 45 dubs or not.
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Aaron Kannowski
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aaronk
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I had a chance to hear these bonus tracks, thanks to one of our fellow board members, and I can say with 100% certainty that they are all vinyl 45 dubs--and not very good ones. There's lots of groove distortion, and the overall sound is muddy on all of them. I'm not at all surprised, even though I was hoping for a miracle.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 01 July 2013 at 7:32pm | IP Logged
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I ran across a 1973-era Goldies 45 reissue of "Joy To The World" in my collection that I don't ever recall listening to. It's mono and runs 3:20, just like the Dunhill 45.
But boy howdy, has this one ever been put under the knife: the entire instrumental break is missing! The chorus gets re-looped to cover for it, which gets very old in a hurry. If a tape of the hit mono 45 was found somewhere for the Celebrate CD compilation, it was certainly missing when this surgically-reconstructed creation was released.
So what was the deal with the disappearance of the original ABC/Dunhill mono 45 masters? Here's my theory: It might have all been a result of the company deciding to go with CBS exclusively for its manufacturing. That process didn't happen overnight: the first Columbia-pressed 45 I recall buying was Cherokee's "Girl I Got News For You" on ABC in August of '71. I have two vinyl Monarch-pressed "Re-1" mono/stereo DJ 45s of that title; one with a big star on the stereo side, the other copy with none at all. My stock is a mono vinyl "Re-2" Columbia Santa Maria pressing. About a month and a half later, I recall seeing CSM-pressed mono/stereo DJs and mono stocks of The Road Home's "Keep It In The Family" on Dunhill and - at least for promo 45s - the Columbia pressings became the norm from that point on.
But before they could do an exclusive deal with CBS, ABC still had to fulfill their long-term deals with their independent plants, including Monarch, Plastic Products, Specialty, Clarion and Sun Plastics for 45s (as well as Dynamic LP Stereo Record Pressing, which pressed LPs only.) Monarch and Specialty appear to have bowed out of the picture first, with the original Dunhill Goldies 45s and ABC Treasure Chest reissue 45s going with them. Meanwhile, very poorly-pressed original Dunhill pairings were still being produced on the post-1968 Dunhill logo label by either Clarion or Sun (or possibly both) until the deals with those companies and Plastic Products finally expired at the end of 1972. At the beginning of 1973, CBS' pressing deal finally became exclusive.
As per the usual policy at Columbia, the ABC and Dunhill titles in the former Dunhill Goldies 45 and Treasure Chest lines would need to be re-cut in-house by CBS, and so, with the previous indie plants no longer manufacturing ABC/Dunhill product, the original ABC and Dunhill 45 stampers were retired. From the moment CBS began to press older titles for the newly-consolidated (1973) Goldies 45 catalog, it was apparent that the original mono 45 mix tapes were no longer in the ABC vaults.
It could be that someone connected to Three Dog Night made backup copies of the singles masters before they were sent to the label. Or maybe not, if it should turn out that the "single mixes" on Celebrate prove to have been disc dubs.
Edited by Yah Shure on 01 July 2013 at 7:46pm
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 01 July 2013 at 7:35pm | IP Logged
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(duplicate post)
Edited by Yah Shure on 01 July 2013 at 7:36pm
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TomDiehl1
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| Posted: 01 July 2013 at 9:43pm | IP Logged
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It was a company decision to throw out all of the mono masters (where stereo mixes existed) to save space in the tape vault....that's not the first time that's happened...a number of RCA and Columbia multitracks are gone because of the same thing.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 02 July 2013 at 1:46pm | IP Logged
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TomDiehl1 wrote:
| It was a company decision to throw out all of the mono masters (where stereo mixes existed) to save space in the tape vault....that's not the first time that's happened...a number of RCA and Columbia multitracks are gone because of the same thing. |
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Tom, I think what John meant to say was "So what was the deal with the disappearance of the original ABC/Dunhill mono 45 stampers?" I don't think any of us have ever disputed the fact that the company threw away the masters.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 02 July 2013 at 2:28pm | IP Logged
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aaronk wrote:
| Tom, I think what John meant to say was "So what was the deal with the disappearance of the original ABC/Dunhill mono 45 stampers?" I don't think any of us have ever disputed the fact that the company threw away the masters. |
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Thanks, Aaron; I hadn't made that point clear enough. My intent was to pinpoint why the last product derived from those master tapes stopped flowing from the manufacturing pipeline when it did.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: three dog night joy to the world
