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budaniel
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Taylor Swift--3 songs that have never received any airplay crash into the top 10 because of current tallying practices. Absolutely no offense to Taylor, because We Are Never Getting Back Together belongs there, but this is really a cheap way for artists to break previous records held by artists who truly did have numerous top 10 hits from the same album....
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torcan
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FWIW, I agree totally. This topic was brought up briefly in another thread recently, but I really don't like this practice. Records were set previously because "singles" were actually being promoted to radio, and consumers bought the 45s, cassette singles or CD singles to get it to the top 10. A "preview single" that hits the top 10 one week and drops completely off the next just doesn't cut if for me - and it skews the chart records.
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Brian W.
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Yes, it seems to me like the charts are becoming somewhat irrelevant. Maybe they always were, I don't know. In my opinion, the real measure of a hit in our current singles-driven market is how many copies the digital song sold. A million isn't even a big hit anymore. A real hit is at least 2 million copies.
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Smokin' TomGary
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Having been employed in the radio broadcasting industry in engineering and programming I can say that radio airplay is NOT the sole definition of a "hit". The radio business has to share advertising revenue with Internet stations, competing broadcasters, downloads, iPod and other technologies.
The soundtrack for "O Brother Where Art Thou" sold over 1 million copies yet contained NO commercial hits. Albums by Peter Lemongello sold over TV ads were very successful yet none of his songs charted on Billboard.
The definition of a "hit" has changed. The methodology of compiling charts has changed. It is no longer a fair of apples-to-apples comparison of today's Hot 100 compared to say 20 or 30 years ago.
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aaronk
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There have been some very interesting points brought up about the charts recently (in this and other posts). I may be in the minority, but I've never been one to feel like the Hot 100 is gospel. I think you have to look at more than one chart to get an accurate picture of popularity.
I think we also often lose sight of the fact that these charts are ranking a song's popularity for a given week. I think we all agree that it would be difficult to compare today's chart with the charts from 30 years ago. It's also not necessarily a fair comparison when placing one week's chart against another week from the same time period. For all we know, the #1 song one week may have sold 50,000 copies and received 5,000 radio spins, and another week the #1 song might only have sold 20,000 copies and received 2,000 spins.
The bottom line is that most of the chart records (i.e. who had the most top 10 hits) are based on one thing alone: peak position. They don't take into account actual number of sales, actual radio airplay, or number of weeks on the chart. Even if they were based on this info, it would still be unfair to compare any two weeks worth of data because of too many variables that differ on a week-to-week basis.
I do feel like the Hot 100 is a nice chart (probably the best we have) for telling us which SONGS (not "singles") are most popular this week. I'm pretty sure that was the original intent of the chart and still is today. It's fun to look at chart "records" like how many songs did an artist place in the top 10, but I really feel like you have to take this information with a grain of salt. I doubt I'll see in my lifetime any artist surpass the Beatles or Elvis in total record sales, even if Taylor Swift places more songs in the top 10.
Edited by aaronk on 21 October 2012 at 10:17am
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Aaron Kannowski
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The Hits Man
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I think some may have an issue with the speed of what becomes a top seller today, and the fickle audience.
I don't have a problem with the new methodology. In a way, the new methods of music delivery has destroyed the need for various genres.
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budaniel
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I definitely agree that there were songs that should have been on the charts back when i was growing up but weren't--particularly songs that got heavy rotation on MTV and were really huge hits.
But when I look at the top 10 charts back from the 80s, it is rare that I see a song in the top 10 that I didn't hear in heavy rotation on the radio. As we moved out of the 80s and into the 90s, that issue gets really bad. By the mid-90s, I'd say there were at least half of the songs in the top 10 each week that I never heard on top 40 radio, at least not here in NY.
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The Hits Man
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budaniel wrote:
But when I look at the top 10 charts back from the 80s, it is rare that I see a song in the top 10 that I didn't hear in heavy rotation on the radio. As we moved out of the 80s and into the 90s, that issue gets really bad. By the mid-90s, I'd say there were at least half of the songs in the top 10 each week that I never heard on top 40 radio, at least not here in NY. |
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I think a lot of that has to do with the continued splintering of the audiences, and the increasing trend of radio narrowing playlists.
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aaronk
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budaniel wrote:
| But when I look at the top 10 charts back from the 80s, it is rare that I see a song in the top 10 that I didn't hear in heavy rotation on the radio. As we moved out of the 80s and into the 90s, that issue gets really bad. By the mid-90s, I'd say there were at least half of the songs in the top 10 each week that I never heard on top 40 radio, at least not here in NY. |
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It sounds like you would be better off looking at top 40 airplay charts for those years rather than the Hot 100. It is this exact reason that I rely heavily on R&R and Mediabase to tell me what the big hits were for 1990 and later. Yes, it can be argued that top 10 Hot 100 songs were also "big hits," but I agree that many of those sales-based hits are much more unfamiliar due to lack of pop airplay.
Nevertheless, I don't fault the Hot 100 for it. That chart is not an airplay-only chart, and it never was meant to be.
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Hykker
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budaniel wrote:
I definitely agree that there were songs that should have been on the charts back when i was growing up but weren't--particularly songs that got heavy rotation on MTV and were really huge hits.
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The Hits Man wrote:
I think a lot of that has to do with the continued splintering of the audiences, and the increasing trend of radio narrowing playlists. |
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In reality, it goes back to the 70s...the Hot 100 only focused on singles, but there were any number of legitimate hit songs that were only album cuts (or the lion's share of sales was albums and/or airplay on AOR stations). "Stairway To Heaven", "Freebird", "Turn The Page"...the list goes on.
Singles and Top 40 radio only told part of the story.
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aaronk
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Hykker wrote:
In reality, it goes back to the 70s...the Hot 100 only focused on singles, but there were any number of legitimate hit songs that were only album cuts (or the lion's share of sales was albums and/or airplay on AOR stations). "Stairway To Heaven", "Freebird", "Turn The Page"...the list goes on.
Singles and Top 40 radio only told part of the story.
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What's interesting is that "Stairway" and all the other songs you named would have probably shown up on the Hot 100 in today's sales-driven, digital downloads market. It makes me wonder if they had, would people have complainied that those "non hits" should not have charted since they don't have any top 40 airplay and/or a "single" release?
I agree, though, that the Hot 100 doesn't tell the whole story.
Edited by aaronk on 23 October 2012 at 10:17pm
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Glenpwood
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The chart has always been manipulated from several angles. It
probably always has been but a few that stick out from my years in
music retail. All those free singles goods the labels would give stores
so we would sell them for .49 or .99 cents. Particularly once the majors
got greedy in the late nineties and stopped putting singles out on most
their hits. I would put an asterisk next to a song such as My All by
Mariah Carey or Discoteque by U2 as quickly as some of these Taylor
Swift songs since they were Discount sales driven not an equal balance
of sales and airplay. Another was the whole Destinys Child Bootylicious
vs Mariah Carey Loverboy chart showdown where the labels pushed us
at FYE to sell those titles at the register for a quarter. We were
instructed to push them as replacement kewel cases and toss the CD if
neccessary! They also pulled that with Mikalia So In Love With Two
which ranks as my fakest hit of all time since Universal offered $500
bucks cash to the store that could sell the most copies because once
the label dropped the promotion the next week it crashed down the
chart. Labels also use their pull via promotional goods or appearances
by their top acts with the major stations to get their records on the air or
threaten to pull support so which one is the lesser of two evils at the
end of the day?
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Brian W.
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Wow, that is some story, Glenpwood. I'd heard about the Mariah "Loverboy" issue before, but I didn't know the whole thing was that bad.
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EdisonLite
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Just a comment on today's charts (whether manipulated or not). This subject has been mentioned in this post and other posts:
Would you consider a song with these chart stats a big hit:
1 week in the top 20
2 weeks in the top 30
3 weeks in the top 40
... especially if this is the 1st single from an upcoming album, where the previous album peaked at #1 in Billboard.
In the '70s, this would be a medium-sized hit at best ... although a song that only lasted in the top 40 for 3 weeks really wouldn't be considered medium but small (and a song that quickly came and went).
Well, this song peaked at #3 three weeks ago, and by that definition alone could be called a big hit, and especially would be promoted as that by the band's promotion.
Anyway, that's the chart path of One Direction's new single "Live While We're Young":
3 21 31
I just find it so odd these days when peak position (especially in upcoming Joel Whitburn books) makes it look like a big hit, yet by most standards (even radio airplay), this'll not feel like ... or go down in the record books ... as being a really big (known) hit.
Edited by EdisonLite on 28 October 2012 at 11:05am
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aaronk
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It wouldn't surprise me if the One Direction song popped back into the
top 40, since it's currently #16 on Mediabase's CHR chart. To answer
your question, though, Gordon, no I would not consider it a big hit with
those chart stats.
There may be some who disagree with me, but I don't consider Taylor
Hicks' #1 song "Do I Make You Proud" a big hit either. I think it sold
over 500,000 copies, but I could not sing one line from it. I'm not
sure if I've even heard it more than once in my life, since it didn't
crack the top 40 in airplay.
By contrast, I consider "Cupid Shuffle" by Cupid a big hit. This song
tanked on the charts--#66 Hot 100 and virtually no top 40 airplay.
Despite its poor chart performance, I can play this at just about any
wedding reception and pack the dance floor. Just about everyone who
has attended a wedding in recent years knows this song, and it is, by a
landslide,
the most requested song I've had in the past three years.
If we're talking oldies, Whitburn would probably list "The First Time Ever
I Saw Your Face" as the "biggest hit" from 1972. I would argue that it's
"Stairway To Heaven". It may not have been at the time, but certainly
today many more people know the Zeppelin tune than Roberta Flack.
The point is that the Hot 100 does not alone determine if a song is a
huge hit. You have to consider the big picture, including other charts.
Edited by aaronk on 29 October 2012 at 7:53am
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Glenpwood
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The One Direction song may still revive somewhat but it will be remembered by this generation of teen girls its being marketed to. Not the same arguement as a countdown single to get folks anticipating an upcoming album ala Taylor or Katy Perry. It's taken Justin Bieber several years to get over the wall radio puts up for teen acts because they think they won't last or lesser their cool factor to get serious Top 40 play.
No one is calling out Adele for Skyfall which crashed even harder that 1D this past week going 13-45 on the Hot 100 after sales initially landed it in the Top 10. One can use the excuse its a Bond theme and not a true follow up to 21 but coming off nine million album sales and four radio smashes you would expect it to have smashed harder than it has....
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Paul C
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I purchased the Taylor Swift digital singles because they were promoted on iTunes Canada as "iTunes exclusives", which led me to believe that they would not be on her new CD. But except for the charity single 'Ronan', they all are on the CD.
As for the Loverboy vs. Bootylicious fiasco, Columbia Records actually moved up the release date of the 'Bootylicious' CD-single by one week so that it would compete directly with 'Loverboy' and prevent Mariah Carey (who had just left Columbia) from reaching #1.
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Brian W.
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FYI, for anyone interested: a complete list of all the 3-million-plus selling digital songs. The folks at Pulse Music Board like to keep track of these things.
Top Selling Digital Singles Since 2005
8 Million+
1. I Gotta Feeling - The Black Eyed Peas
7 Million+
2. Rolling In The Deep - Adele
3. Party Rock Anthem - LMFAO feat. GoonRock & Lauren Bennett
6 Million+
4. Poker Face - Lady Gaga
5. Just Dance - Lady Gaga
6. Somebody That I Used To Know - Gotye feat. Kimbra [2012]
7. Boom Boom Pow - The Black Eyed Peas
8. Low - Flo Rida feat. T-Pain
9. I'm Yours - Jason Mraz
10. Tik Tok - Ke$ha
11. Dynamite - Taio Cruz
12. Hey Soul Sister - Train
13. Call Me Maybe - Carly Rae Jepsen [2012]
5 Million+
14. Need You Now - Lady Antebellum
15. Firework - Katy Perry
16. Forget You - Cee Lo Green
17. We Are Young - Fun. feat. Janelle Monaé [2012]
18. Sexy And I Know It - LMFAO
19. Viva La Vida - Coldplay
20. Love The Way You Lie - Eminem feat. Rihanna
21. Moves Like Jagger - Maroon 5 feat. Christina Aguilera
22. Apologize - OneRepublic feat. Timbaland
23. Don't Stop Believing - The Journey
24. Love Story - Taylor Swift
25. California Gurls - Katy Perry feat. Snoop Dogg
26. E.T. - Katy Perry
27. Just The Way You Are - Bruno Mars
28. Hot n Cold - Katy Perry
29. Grenade - Bruno Mars
30. Right Round - Flo Rida feat. Ke$ha
31. Bad Romance - Lady Gaga
32. Someone Like You - Adele
33. Empire State Of Mind - Jay Z feat. Alicia Keys
34. Party In The U.S.A. - Miley Cyrus
35. Single Ladies (Put A Ring On It) - Beyoncé
4 Million+
36. Lose Yourself - Eminem
37. Crank That (Soulja Boy)
38. Pumped Up Kicks - Foster The People
39. Stronger - Kanye West
40. We Found Love - Rihanna feat. Calvin Harris
41. Not Afraid - Eminem
42. Fireflies - Owl City
43. OMG - Usher feat. will.i.am
44. Airplanes - B.o.B. feat. Hayley Williams
45. Lollipop - Lil Wayne feat. Static Mayor
46. Give Me Everything - Pitbull feat. NeYo & Nayer
47. Disturbia - Rihanna
48. Bleeding Love - Leona Lewis
49. So What - P!nk
50. Super Bass - Nicki Minaj
51. Live Your Life - T.I. feat. Rihanna
52. Teenage Dream - Katy Perry
53. Hey There Delilah - Plain White T's
54. Payphone - Maroon 5 feat. Wiz Khalifa [2012]
55. I Kissed A Girl - Katy Perry
56. Down - Jay Sean feat. Lil Wayne
57. If I Die Young - The Band Perry
58. Set Fire To The Rain - Adele
59. Whatever You Like - T.I.
60. Let It Rock - Kevin Rudolf feat. Lil Wayne
61. You Belong With Me - Taylor Swift
62. Gives You Hell - The All-American Rejects
63. How To Save A Life - The Fray
64. Umbrella - Rihanna feat. Jay Z
65. Rockstar - Nickelback
66. Like A G6 - Far East Movement feat. The Cataracs and Dev
67. Heartless - Kanye West
68. SexyBack - Justin Timberlake
3 Million+
69. Replay - Iyaz
70. Use Somebody - Kings of Leon
71. Black and Yellow - Wiz Khalifa
72. Raise You Glass - P!nk
73. DJ Got Us Fallin' In Love - Usher
74. I Like It - Enrique Iglesias feat. Pitbull
75. Paper Planes - MIA
76. Big Girls Don't Cry - Fergie
77. Stronger (What Doesn't Kill You) - Kelly Clarkson [2012]
78. We R Who We R - Ke$ha
79. Born This Way - Lady Gaga
80. Whatcha Say - Jason Derulo
81. Starships - Nicki Minaj [2012]
82. Just A Dream - Nelly
83. Imma Be - The Black Eyed Peas
84. Break Your Heart - Taio Cruz feat. Ludacris
85. No One - Alicia Keys
86. Baby - Justin Bieber feat. Ludacris
87. Bubbly - Colbie Caillat
88. On The Floor - Jennifer Lopez feat. Pitbull
89. Forever - Chris Brown
90. Yeah! - Usher feat. Lil John and Ludacris
91. Look At Me Now - Chris Brown feat. Lil Wayne and Busta Rhymes
92. Before He Cheats - Carrie Underwood
93. Stereo Hearts - Gym Class Heroes feat. Adam Lavine
94. What Makes You Beautiful - One Direction [2012]
95. Good Feeling - Flo Rida
96. Girlfriend - Avril Lavigne
97. Chicken Fried - Zac Brown Band
98. The Climb - Miley Cyrus
99. Love Song - Sarah Bareilles
100. No Air - Jordin Sparks feat. Chris Brown
101. Gold Digger - Kanye West feat. Jamie Foxx
102. Over the Rainbow - Israel Kamakawiwo'ole
103. Wild Ones - Flo Rida feat. Sia [2012]
104. Don't Stop The Music - Rihanna
105. Chasing Cars - Snow Patrol
106. Lights - Ellie Goulding [2012]
107. Bad Day - Daniel Powter
108. What I've Done - Linkin Park
109. S&M - Rihanna
110. Sexy Bitch - David Guetta feat. Akon
111. Only Girl (In The World) - Rihanna
112. Dirt Road Anthem - Jason Aldean
113. The Time (Dirty Bit) - The Black Eyed Peas
114. Womanizer - Britney Spears
115. Paparazzi - Lady Gaga
116. You Found Me - The Fray
117. Glad You Came - The Wanted [2012]
118. Jar Of Hearts - Christina Perri
119. Last Friday Night (T.G.I.F.) - Katy Perry
120. Billionaire - Travie McCoy feat. Bruno Mars
121. Smack That - Akon feat. Eminem
122. The Lazy Song - Bruno Mars
123. Crazy - Gnarls Barkley
124. Eye of the Tiger - Survivor
125. Don't Trust Me - 3OH!3
126. Paralizer - Finger Eleven
127. Young, Wild and Free - Wiz Khalifa and Snoop Dogg feat. Bruno Mars
128. Pocketful Of Sunshine - Natasha Bedingfield
129. Hips Don't Life - Shakira
130. Lips of an Angel - Hinder
131. Telephone - Lady Gaga feat. Beyoncé
132. Bottoms Up - Trey Songz feat. Nicki Minaj
133. Thriller - Michael Jackson
134. Dead and Gone - T.I. feat. Justin Timberlake
135. Just Can't Get Enough - The Black Eyed Peas
136. Irreplaceable - Beyoncé
137. Your Love Is My Drug - Ke$ha
138. Halo - Beyoncé
139. BedRock - Young Money
140. Forever - Drake feat. Kanye West, Lil Wayne and Eminem
141. Tonight (I'm Lovin' You) - Enrique Iglesias feat. Ludacris
142. Love Lockdown - Kanye West
143. I Know You Want Me (Calle Ocho) - Pitbull
144. Run This Town - Jay Z feat. Rihanna
145. Fergalicious - Fergie feat. will.i.am
146. Nothin' On You - B.o.B. feat. Bruno Mars
147. The Show Goes On - Lupe Fiasco
148. Good Life - OneRepublic
149. Let's Get It Started - The Black Eyed Peas
150. The Way I Are - Timbaland feat. Keri Hilson
151. Boyfriend - Justin Bieber [2012]
152. The Sweet Escape - Gwen Stefani feat. Akon
153. Blow - Ke$ha
154. It Will Rain - Bruno Mars
155. Our Song - Taylor Swift
156. Fire Burning - Sean Kingston
157. 4 Minutes - Madonna feat. Justin Timberlake
158. In My Head - Jason Derulo
159. Glamorous - Fergie feat. Ludacris
160. Bohemian Rhapsody - Queen
161. You're Beautiful - James Blunt
162. Some Nights - Fun. [2012]
163. Whistle - Flo Rida [2012]
164. N****s In Paris - Jay-Z & Kanya West
165. No Hands - Waka Flocka Flame
Edited by Brian W. on 08 November 2012 at 12:35pm
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: the latest messy top 10 issue
