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eriejwg
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| Posted: 25 August 2011 at 8:30pm | IP Logged
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Perhaps, those with the original 45 can answer this puzzling question. Was the 45 mono or stereo? I always thought the 45 was mono and was a different mix than stereo versions. Yet, the database doesn't indicate anything like that.
Perhaps, I am confused and mistaken. LOL.
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davidclark
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| Posted: 26 August 2011 at 4:07am | IP Logged
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the 45 was mono, and quite a different mix from the stereo. It just "feels"
different!
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The Hits Man
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| Posted: 26 August 2011 at 10:49pm | IP Logged
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The mono 45 had more bass, louder drums, and louder
percussion. It is drier, too.
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MMathews
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| Posted: 27 August 2011 at 3:00am | IP Logged
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I never found the entire mix to be radically different...
(but i admit its been a few years since i heard it)
....Yes, the usual different compression and EQ..but the
most obvious mix difference is in the echo when he says
"listen while i PLAY,play,play...etc.
On the 45 it was more of a fast slap echo, but on the
stereo LP it's a slower echo with the words spaced
farther part (if that makes sense).
And the 45 mix has only ever been mono.
Same take and instruments, though. For example, there are
no missing overdubs on the stereo.
But the mixing difference overall would make stereo
releases the "LP Version", to be technical.
-MM
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 27 August 2011 at 7:08pm | IP Logged
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I have the mono 45 mix on a European CD called, I think, "The Pye International Story." It's also got the mono mix of Lovin' Spoonful's "Daydream."
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MMathews
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| Posted: 27 August 2011 at 11:26pm | IP Logged
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Oh, thanks Brian...i actually have that Pye collection,
but I forgot Green Tambourine was on there!
(thought i only had the 45 mix on an old K-tel LP)
The Pye 2-CD set is worth tracking down, it has many hard-
to find 50' and 60's tracks on it.
-MM
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bwolfe
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| Posted: 29 August 2011 at 9:47am | IP Logged
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The 45 version of this one is far superior to any hollow sounding stereo.
It just seems full (yeah its mono), the stereo seems empty.
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the way it was heard on the radio
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The Hits Man
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| Posted: 29 August 2011 at 12:52pm | IP Logged
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Problem is, most CD reissue producers are stuck on stereo.
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Hykker
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| Posted: 30 August 2011 at 6:49am | IP Logged
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bwolfe wrote:
The 45 version of this one is far superior to any hollow sounding stereo.
It just seems full (yeah its mono), the stereo seems empty. |
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This is true with a lot of Buddah singles from that era.
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bwolfe
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| Posted: 31 August 2011 at 11:20am | IP Logged
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When they did a Buddah two disc history some years ago they needed to use needle drops for single versions of the songs featured. "Down At Lulu's" and "Simon Says" are two I recall. Maybe they don't have the 45 masters of those recordings much like the ABC/Dunhill stuff?
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the way it was heard on the radio
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The Hits Man
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| Posted: 31 August 2011 at 5:05pm | IP Logged
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What does the Buddah Box have on it? The SQ on a lot of
stuff is suspect, even though it was done by Bob Hyde.
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MMathews
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| Posted: 31 August 2011 at 11:18pm | IP Logged
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Ok
Thanks to The Hits Man, who sent me a nice dub of the 45
of Green Tambourine. I a/b'd them, and as i suspected
it's just another case of the mastering making the mixing
engineer look bad.
Now, before i even begin here, stereo vs. mono for 60's
music is subjective, i prefer stereo, many prefer mono.
That's just how it is, period.
But i also ask, if someone says a stereo mix falls short
or is missing something, i ask myself, "What's missing?"
To do that all one needs do is carefully compare them.
sometimes it's a mixing differences, sometimes an
overdub, but OFTEN it's nothing more than EQ and
compression.
Many stereo mixes that have the famous "bad rep" (like
Motown) are far more a case of mastering later than the
way the mix was really made. Sure in the case of Motown,
a few mistakes were made in a few stereo versions, but
most were actually great mixes, once you put the correct
EQ, and/or speed back in them, which is I'm sure how the
mixing engineers heard them ... but were lost over years
of running flat, un-EQ'd tapes, making copies, etc
etc.
I could go on and on ......but here's the result of my
comparison for Green Tambourine:
All the elements of the mono mix are present in the
stereo mix, and i was even mistaken about the echo on
"play, play, play...".. once you correct the PITCH of the
stereo mix, the echo sounds the same, and synchs
perfectly.
Btw, my source for the stereo was The Buddah Box, which
contains mostly stereo LP versions, to answer the above
Q. But it has the cleanest copies i've heard to date.
The stereo mix was running too fast (for those with a
pitch editor, it was a -28 % of a semi-tone shift to
match the 45, which is quite a lot!)
It was also EQ'd poorly with less BASS than the 45 has,
and far less compression, which is really the only thing
you want for the LP, rarely is it a good idea to use the
same compression on a stereo mix that was used on the
mono. They for playing in differing environments.
But, one can add enough to emulate the punch needed on a
particular song, in most cases.
But in this one, the lack of compression, and less bass,
causes the DRUMS to be almost inaudible on the stereo,
while they seem to thump loudly thru the whole 45. This
is the different "feel" David describes.
Once you correct the speed of the LP version, and EQ it
much more like the 45, and add a reasonable amount of
compression/limiting, you get the same basic mix, except
in stereo. The stereo mix has no added reverb vs. the
45.
There's my report. Hope it helps!
Hopefully, next time its released someone will pull the
mono mix off the Pye Story CD, OR if using the stereo,
simply masters it more like the 45 was.
-MM
Edited by MMathews on 31 August 2011 at 11:23pm
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The Hits Man
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| Posted: 01 September 2011 at 3:36am | IP Logged
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Well, Mark, I disagree with you on Motown, but that's a
discussion for another thread.
But, anyway, if you can bring out the bass on the stereo,
it would be nice. but, I think it's more than just bad
mastering, since all the stereo versions are weak-sounding.
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Hykker
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| Posted: 01 September 2011 at 5:28am | IP Logged
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MMathews wrote:
But i also ask, if someone says a stereo mix falls short
or is missing something, i ask myself, "What's missing?"
To do that all one needs do is carefully compare them.
sometimes it's a mixing differences, sometimes an
overdub, but OFTEN it's nothing more than EQ and
compression. |
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I would have to add the limitations of 3-track recording (which was pretty common in those days) giving it an artificial hard-left, hard-right or centered tracks that just sounds weak compared to the "fatter" mono mixdown.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 01 September 2011 at 5:34pm | IP Logged
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I spent an hour or so this afternoon putzing around with a stereo Radio Active Gold reissue 45 I bought in the late '70s when Buddah Records discontinued the series. (Its B-side, "No Help From Me," remained in mono.) This stereo 45 has more bottom end to it than any other stereo vinyl or CD track I've heard of "Green Tambourine."
I EQ'd its bottom end, added compression and folded it down. It resembled the mono 45 in some respects, but in the end, it never found "the groove" that the mono 45 mix has. To me, the ultra-wide stereo mix has too much disparate "stuff" going on, and all of that intricate detail causes the ultimate focus of the record - it's "groove" - to become diffused. It's the aural equivalent of not being able to see the forest for the trees.
Extra EQ and compression alone can't get that focus back. It's "the groove," or what David refers to as the "feeling" that is the driving force behind this record, and I think the mono mix carries a lot more emotional impact because of that. It's that certain "je ne sais quoi" thing about a record that you may not be able to put your finger on to explain, but you know it when you hear it. It's all about finding "the groove."
From a technical standpoint, the stereo mix is a real trip in itself. I can and do appreciate that, but only on a technical level; it doesn't engage me emotionally at all. If the stereo mix floats one's boat, that's wonderful. But I listen primarily in mono, and no fold-down of even that fairly bass-heavy reissue 45's ultra-wide stereo mix matches the "groove" of the mono single.
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MMathews
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| Posted: 01 September 2011 at 11:32pm | IP Logged
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I agree with all above.
Alas, a forensic report on the mastering or mix
differences isn't really going to sell one on it one way
or the other.
But, for me, any groove is only enhanced in stereo.
I can't help it, just how the head is wired.
But i do like my stereo to resemble its mono counterpart
in things like pitch and EQ. :-)
-MM
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KentT
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| Posted: 05 September 2011 at 6:54pm | IP Logged
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The mono 45 had punch which virtually no Stereo version ever had. The Stereo LP mix didn't collapse to mono well on this track, it had wonky phase issues (one reason why the DJ LP was mono. And never available commercially that way).
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Lemon Pipers - Green Tambourine
