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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 12 May 2007 at 12:50am | IP Logged
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It has been reported on the Both Sides Now message board (www.bsnpubs.com) that there are a number of Simon & Garfunkel Top 40 hits where the mono 45 mixes differ from the stereo LP mixes:
HOMEWARD BOUND - The LP contains heavy reverb, while the 45 is alleged to be "dry".
A HAZY SHADE OF WINTER - The 45 is reported to have additional horn passages not on the LP.
AT THE ZOO - The LP is said to have phasing effects not on the 45.
MRS. ROBINSON - On the 45, the cymbals are alleged to be mixed louder during the choruses and the song fades out approximately :13 later, which includes a piano passage and extra guitar strums not heard on the LP.
BRIDGE OVER TROUBLED WATER - It's reported that the cello is more prominent throughout the 45 and during the final verse the bass, drums, and orchestra are mixed way up along with the lead vocal, whereas only the vocal is upfront on the LP. The 45 also supposedly runs slightly faster than the LP.
CECILIA - The percussion is supposedly a bit different in the section between the verses "taking my place" and "Cecilia, you're breaking my heart" on the 45 than on the LP, and the "Wo-o-oo . . " ending is believed to be arranged differently on the 45.
The database currently contains no comments on mix differences for any of the above songs. I don't have any of the commercial 45s so I'm unable to verify these mix differences for myself. If there is anyone who can, please confirm them for us!
Edited by Todd Ireland on 12 May 2007 at 12:55am
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 12 May 2007 at 9:37am | IP Logged
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Yeah, I'm hoping this trend of reissuing albums in their stereo and mono versions on the same disc continues. There are so many mono hit mixes missing from CD. The Rascals' albums are the latest to get the mono/stereo two-fer treatment from Collector's Choice.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 12 May 2007 at 10:03am | IP Logged
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I didn't realize Rascals 2-fers have recently been reissued on CD, Brian. That's great news because I've been waiting for the stereo mixes on the group's earlier Top 40 hits to receive some much needed remastering treatment. I've always been pretty impressed with the sound quality on Collector's Choice CDs.
Back to Simon & Garfunkel... I notice the CD run times in the database for "Cecilia" run anywhere from 3:49-4:02. This is a pretty big range and there are currently no database comments indicating what the correct 45 and LP run times are. Would anyone be so kind to help provide this info? Thanks!
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satchdr
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| Posted: 12 May 2007 at 11:43am | IP Logged
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Todd, although I no longer have my original 45s of these songs, and therefore cannot do a comparison of them today with my S&G LPs and CDs, I remember that "At The Zoo" had slightly different mixes for 45 and LP, that "Fakin' It" had distinctly different mixes for the two sources and that "I Am A Rock" appeared to have a different vocal track for each source, specifically at the beginning with Simon's vocal. You can hear it at the line "in a deep and dark December," especially that the word "December" is sung differently on each source. I remember it jumping out at me as a teenager the first time I listened to the "Sounds Of Silence" album when I brought it home from the store.
Dan
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jimct
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| Posted: 12 May 2007 at 2:55pm | IP Logged
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Todd Ireland wrote:
| The database currently contains no comments on mix differences for any of the above songs. I don't have any of the commercial 45s so I'm unable to verify these mix differences for myself. If there is anyone who can, please confirm them for us! |
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Todd, I will shoot original 45 dubs for all six of these out to you, within the next few days, so your "expert ear" can determine and separate fact from fiction....
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BillCahill
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| Posted: 12 May 2007 at 4:12pm | IP Logged
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The heavy reverb might not have been on the original stereo lp of Homeward Bound. It's been docummented that reverb was added to the masters over the years. This is because Columbia had an insane process of making a dub ONCE from the original mix downs master. When that dub started to wear out they'd make a dub from THAT worn out dub until that wore out. Then another. Over time they covered up the tape drop outs with reverb. Simon and Garfunkel's Collected Works CD set contains the reverbed tapes. I believe later vinyl does too. Bob Irwin's digital multi track remixes do not. I think you'd need to find an original pressing to determine if that reverb was present on the stereo LP. Maybe somebody else knows more, correct me if I'm wrong. As far as the other mixes, stereo vs. mono, there are probably some slight differences.
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PaulEschen
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| Posted: 13 May 2007 at 7:16am | IP Logged
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The 45 version of "At The Zoo" does not have the phasing effect on the
percussion after the opening lines, and again, when the phrase is
repeated. The 45 version of "Homeward Bound" does sound as though
there is no reverb, and also, the drums sound as though they have more
low-end, or bass sound to them, and it seems that one can hear the
organ in the chorus a little louder as well.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 23 May 2007 at 10:19pm | IP Logged
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I have an update on Simon and Garfunkel's "Hazy Shade of Winter". Thanks to some always appreciated help from Jim, I compared an mp3 of his commercial 45 to the stereo version on Simon and Garfunkel's Best of CD (Columbia/Legacy 66022). I've confirmed there are indeed very short horn passages at the :55, :59, 1:02, and 1:36 points on the 45 that are not on what appears to be the LP version on Best of. Pat must have recently noticed this too as there are now comments in the database reflecting that the 45 and LP are different.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 23 May 2007 at 10:40pm | IP Logged
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Having now had a chance to compare Jim's "Homeward Bound" mono commercial 45 to the stereo mix on Simon & Garfunkel's Best of CD, I agree that the LP version contains some slight reverb not heard on the 45. That's pretty much the only difference I hear between the two mixes though. So does anyone think the light reverb is significant enough to warrant some sort of general mention in the database? Perhaps something like: (The stereo LP contains slight reverb not heard on the mono 45)?
Edited by Todd Ireland on 23 May 2007 at 11:07pm
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 28 May 2007 at 10:07pm | IP Logged
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Ok, I've done an A-B comparison between Jim's commercial 45 of "Cecilia", which is mono, and the stereo mix on Simon & Garfunkel's Best of CD. The 45 does run slightly faster than the LP and the acoustic guitar is more pronounced throughout the 45, while barely audible at all during most of the stereo mix. Meanwhile, the stereo mix contains someone whistling at 1:07, which is not present on the 45. Pat has updated the database to reflect that the 45 and LP are different, but I thought I'd elaborate on the specific differences alleged for this song earlier in this thread.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 28 May 2007 at 10:37pm | IP Logged
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Just got done comparing Jim's commercial 45 of "Bridge over Troubled Water", which is mono, to the stereo mix on Simon & Garfunkel's Best of CD. I honestly didn't notice any significant differences between the two that would warrant a 45/LP version or 45/LP mix notation in the database. There really isn't any speed difference between the two either. Therefore, I disagree with the differences that were previously reported for the 45 and LP of "Bridge over Troubled Water" and am of the opinion that no additional database comments are needed here.
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Hykker
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| Posted: 22 October 2008 at 7:10pm | IP Logged
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Todd Ireland wrote:
| Ok, I've done an A-B comparison between Jim's commercial 45 of "Cecilia", which is mono, and the stereo mix on Simon & Garfunkel's Best of CD. The 45 does run slightly faster than the LP and the acoustic guitar is more pronounced throughout the 45, while barely audible at all during most of the stereo mix. Meanwhile, the stereo mix contains someone whistling at 1:07, which is not present on the 45. Pat has updated the database to reflect that the 45 and LP are different, but I thought I'd elaborate on the specific differences alleged for this song earlier in this thread. |
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Bringing this thread back from the past.
Another difference that stands out to me is the xylophone (?) at the beginning of the instrumental bridge seems to be mixed higher on the 45 than the album.
Does anyone have the stereo promo copy of this single? I could have sworn I played it back in '70 (and indeed most Columbia promo 45s of that era were mono/stereo), but my promo is just a white-label version of the commercial single.
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Indy500
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| Posted: 23 October 2008 at 8:53am | IP Logged
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I think we can be certain that Columbia mono mixes are not fold-downs even if they are undistinguishable from the stereo mix.
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 23 October 2008 at 10:25am | IP Logged
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I'm actually glad that Hykker brought this thread back. Reminded me that I needed to purchase 45 copies of "At The Zoo" and "A Hazy Shade of Winter", which I did today.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 24 October 2008 at 2:09pm | IP Logged
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What strikes me about the 45 mix of "A Hazy Shade Of Winter" is how far more prominent the vocals are. You can actually understand what Paul and Artie are singing! The split-channel vocals on the stereo mix tend to be overpowered by the backing track. When the stereo mix is played on AM radio (or on a mono FM receiver) the vocals get buried under a foot of snow; "A Hazier Shade Of Winter," as it were.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Simon & Garfunkel 45 vs. LP mixes
