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Jody Thornton
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Well my confusion is that the "edit" that was included on the greatest hits CD and is now heard commonly on the radio is an edit of the "Night Version". It only has two "hungry Like the Wolf" whispers in the refrain. Whereas the hit radio version I was familiar with was a more plain mix, but with the same edit going right into the first verse at about nine seconds, and with three "hungry" whispers in the refrain (different edit point). Also it has a loud moan at the end. To me that's the definitive radio version.
What I'd like to know is, what was the UK LP version? I thought that the 5:14 Night Mix WAS the orignal LP version. This reminds me of the longer Go Gos "We Got the Beat" confusion...lol
Edited by Jody Thornton on 09 April 2015 at 6:45am
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Jody Thornton wrote:
| Well my confusion is that the "edit" that was included on the greatest hits CD and is now heard commonly on the radio is an edit of the "Night Version". |
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This is actually not true. The short non-hit 45 version found on Decade cannot be created by using the longer "Night Version." To name a couple of immediate differences, the drums have different reverb between the two, and the opening guitar note is longer on the 45 than on the "Night Version."
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Here's a summary of all the various versions I'm aware of.
3:40 US LP version (on early vinyl pressings)
3:24 non-hit US 45 version (an edit of the 3:40 LP version)
4:03 short hit US 45 version
5:17 US LP version (later pressings) & long hit US 45 version (aka "Night Version")
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Jody Thornton
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OK so can you describe the US "original LP version"? What are the edit points/or verses missing? Is it the one Decade? I take it that the 4:03 short US hit version is the one I sent you in an email (to me, the definitive version you never hear any more)
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The original/UK LP version and non-hit 45 version are the same mix. There is only one edit on the 45, removing about 11 seconds in the breakdown from approximately 2:20 to 2:31 of the 3:40 LP version (on the snare drum hit). The edit removes two of the "hungry like the wolf" whispers, so you only hear it once. The non-hit 45 version is also sped up by about 1.5% from the LP version, which accounts for the additional time difference.
Edited by aaronk on 10 April 2015 at 10:09am
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Jody Thornton
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I see. I honestly thought the edit for "Decade" was just hastily put together for that compilation. I never ever knew it was part of an original issue.
Also, what added to the confusion for me was, I always considered the downbeat of the first verse to be an "edit" point, since I was of the mindset that the 5:14 version WAS the LP version. So technically, I suppose that's not an edit. So I get the rest then.
Edited by Jody Thornton on 10 April 2015 at 10:24am
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crapfromthepast
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Apparently, there were 7 versions of "Hungry Like The Wolf" released worldwide. ("Rio" had twice that number!)
The following is cut-and-pasted from a detailed page at http://www.ionpool.net/duran/rio.html:
Hungry Like The Wolf [Single Version] (3:27)
Found on the original UK 7" single, this is simply an edit of the Album Version. It was edited after the second refrain and runs at an approximate 127 BPM. This 'original' Single Version also appears on the Box Set 'THE SINGLES 81-85'.
Hungry Like The Wolf (Night Version) (5:14)
This is an extended mix based on the Album Version. It contains additional instrumental sections at the beginning and also extra lyrics towards the end. It runs at an approximate 127 BPM and appears on the UK 12" single, the US issue of 'CARNIVAL' and the third pressing of the American LP.
Hungry Like The Wolf [Album Version] (3:39)
The standard Album Version with an approximate 127 BPM.
Hungry Like The Wolf (132 B.P.M.) [132 B.P.M. Album Version] (3:35)
Oddly, a 3:35 version appears on an American promotional 12" sampler. Apparently back in 1982, no one could decide at which speed 'Hungry Like The Wolf' was better - 127 BPM or 132 BPM! If you will listen to each version, you can hear the difference. This is the standard Album Version, although sped-up, and it is labeled as '132 B.P.M.'.
Hungry Like The Wolf [130 B.P.M. Single Version] (3:23)
This is the Single Version, sped-up to an approximate 130 BPM. This version can be found on the first issue of the US 7" single, on 'DECADE' and 'GREATEST'.
Hungry Like The Wolf (Night Version) [129 B.P.M. Night Version] (5:09)
Very oddly, a 5:09 Night Version appears on both the Japanese and Dutch vinyl issues of 'CARNIVAL'. It can also be found on the compilations 'STRANGE BEHAVIOUR' from 1999 and 'THE SINGLES 81-85' from May 2003. It is labeled as Night Version, but runs with an approximate 129 BPM.
Hungry Like The Wolf [US Album Remix] (4:02)
This is a remix of the UK Album Version. It has a different laughing at the beginning, the instrumental part after the second refrain is 9 seconds shorter and at the end we have two more refrains than on the UK Album Version. This mix runs also with an approximate 127 BPM. It can be found on the second pressing of the American LP and was also issued on the US 7" single re-release.
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MMathews wrote:
I just assumed the '83 hit single version was the longer 5:14 (also known as the "Night Version") was the A-side. Why? In NY, that was the version that was played on the major top 40 stations. Even the Rio album was re-pressed in '83 to include the 5:14 version at that point.
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Mark,
A few comments 13 years later...
1) I have never heard the 4:06 or the 1982 radio edit at any time in the 80's or 90's on any station in New York. I was in Brooklyn, so your memory serves you correct. I even heard it in Casey's countdown during February 1983.
2) The night version to me is the version I heard. Numerous others can confirm the 5:14 got played.
3) The longer intro is just plain cool.
4) The 3:25 edit seems to be the go to these days and it just plain takes all the fun out of the song.
So if you are a newbie and assembling an 80s collection, go with the 5:14. I specifically bought the Rio 2CD special set for that reason, the one with all the versions a decade ago. That Rio album 2 cd set is probably in my top 4 albums of the 80's. Everything on Rio is a great song, from My Own Way to Rio to Lonely In Your Nightmare.
Edited by PopArchivist on 08 June 2020 at 8:52pm
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crapfromthepast
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I revisited all of this, and may as well document what I found. I count four versions, which gets bumped up to six if we include speed differences.
UK LP version and non-hit original US LP version (original mix and speed, runs about 3:39)
I have the W. German pressing of the Rio CD. I don't know if the US mastering of Rio differs much from my W. German CD, but I assume that it doesn't. Here, "Hungry Like The Wolf" runs 3:39 and runs 127.7 BPM throughout; I think it's a live drummer playing to a click track.
Not counting "My Own Way," which was released as a 45 in late 1981 and rerecorded for Rio, Duran Duran's three huge UK hits from Rio were "Hungry Like The Wolf" (UK#5), "Save A Prayer" (UK#2), and "Rio" (UK#9) - all peaking on the UK charts in mid-to-late 1982.
UK 45 version (original mix and speed, runs about 3:27)
The UK 45 of "Hungry Like The Wolf" (EMI 5295) and the UK Rio LP were both released with a few days of each other in early May 1982 (release dates according to Wikipedia).
To create the UK 45 version, cut out the 24 beats from 2:19.9 to 2:31.1 of the LP version, with edits on the snare. There's no early fade, just one edit. (I should point out that I don't own the UK 45 myself, but base my instructions on the post from ionpool above.) The edit should run about 3:27, and also runs at 127.7 BPM throughout.
Non-hit original US 45 version (original mix, sped up, printed 3:23, actual 3:23)
The non-hit original US 45 (Harvest 5134) was released in early June 1982 (release date according to Wikipedia).
Someone at EMI thought that the US 45 should be faster, and so the non-hit original US 45 is the same edit as the UK 45, but sped up by exactly 1.5%. It runs 3:24, runs at 129.6 BPM throughout, and is found on the excellent Decade greatest hits CD from 1989.
This version tanked.
Enter David Kershenbaum.
Hit long 45 version (David Kershenbaum Carnival remix, about 5:14)
EMI brought in David Kershenbaum to remix four songs for the Carnival EP, which was released in September 1982 (release date according to Wikipedia). The EP included the 5:14 version of "Hungry Like The Wolf," labeled as the "Night Version" on the EP.
EMI rereleased "Hungry Like The Wolf" on 45 (Capitol 5195 and Harvest 5195) in the US in early December 1982.
One side of that 45 was the 5:14 version from Carnival.
Hit short 45 version (David Kershenbaum Rio remix, printed 4:11, actual 4:03)
EMI and the band really liked what David Kershenbaum did with Carnival, and had him remix all the songs on side 1 of the Rio album. EMI rereleased the Rio vinyl LP in the US with the new remixes, including a new 4:11 (actual 4:03) remix of "Hungry Like The Wolf." The 4:11 version can't be edited down from the 5:14 version.
The other side of the Capitol/Harvest 5195 45 included the 4:11 (actual 4:03) version of the song.
The 4:11 (actual 4:03) version was notoriously hard to find on CD for years. It appeared on Sandstone's Rock The First Vol. 2 in 1992, and in few other places for years after that. It runs 127.1 BPM throughout on Rock The First Vol. 2.
Capitol then released yet another permutation of Rio LP on vinyl, replacing the 4:11 (actual 4:03) version with the 5:14 "Night Version".
Matrix numbers?
Maybe the matrix numbers from the US 45 versions will help sort this out:
3:23 - X600396 B
5:14 - SX600396D
4:11 - SX600396E
There's also a US white-label promo 12 inch single (SPRO-9786), which included the UK album version (the original mix), sped up to "132 B.P.M.", with a printed time of 3:35. This has matrix number SX600396A.
I don't know where the "C" version is.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 10 June 2020 at 12:28am
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NightAire
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Reading over the thread has jogged a memory for me.
I'm convinced my local top 40 of choice (KELI / 14K) played first one side of the remix single, then at some point switched to the other.
...I can't remember which they played first, though!
If someone were to require an answer, I would guess the 4:11 short remix first, and then at some point they switched to the 5:14 long remix. I only say this because the different laugh at the beginning triggers memories of early in the 14K days before they added the FM (92K) and the long version sounds more "normal."
I doubt this adds much to the debate about the "radio" side, except to perhaps show that the Tulsa programmers started out with the short version and, likely after getting airchecks from New York, flipped to playing the long version.
I have NO memory of what version the "heritage" top 40, K107 (on the air a whole two years before 14K) was playing; I was superglued to 14K at the time.
FWIW BlackLight Radio is playing the 4:11 short edit for now but this thread makes me question that decision. :-)
Edited by NightAire on 09 June 2020 at 11:11pm
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Paul Haney
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FWIW, I usually heard the (4:03) version on the radio and
it's still my "go-to" version of that song.
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Gene,
No need to doubt yourself. The Hit short 45 version (David
Kershenbaum Rio remix, printed 4:11, actual 4:03) is what
I carry in my DJ library and have never had someone who's
requested the song come up and question why I played that
version.
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I’m probably in the minority here, but I prefer the original 3:23 version.
The 4:03 remix sounds slow (pitched down) and the vocals are too
loud, IMO. While the Night Version is decent, it takes a minute and a
half before the first vocals begin. It also sounds kinda hastily thrown
together, like the producer tacked the instrumental onto the beginning
of the song rather than creating something special.
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EternalStatic
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I agree with Aaron that the original mix sounds better -- the entire Side 1 of 'Rio' that David K. remixed for it's U.S. re-release has a bit of that "vocals up" feeling to it, which is jarring, and it does suffer from a slight loss of fidelity IMO; however, I still prefer the U.S. versions for my own personal listening because that's what I grew up listening to, and the original mixes just don't quite hit me the same way. (Probably the same way a lot of Americans might prefer the Capitol Records Beatles albums to the UK versions, despite what are probably somewhat valid criticisms to their artistic direction and/or fidelity.)
I heard the Night Version of "Hungry Like the Wolf" after midnight on our Top 40 station quite a bit. I think they played the shorter U.S. "hit"/LP Version during the day.
Edited by EternalStatic on 10 June 2020 at 6:35pm
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aaronk wrote:
While the Night Version is decent, it takes a minute and a
half before the first vocals begin. It also sounds kinda hastily thrown
together, like the producer tacked the instrumental onto the beginning
of the song rather than creating something special. |
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That's tbe beauty of the night version Aaron. The 3:23 leaves out that awesome instrumental, the girl you know what at the end and the sheer build up of getting to the vocals over a minute and a half later. I think we both agree that the 4:03 lacks some of those elements and has been lost to time. I just think this is one of those instances where if the 3:23 was such a good version in 1982, why did it tank so fast here in the states?
What propelled the song to #3 in Feb-March 1983 was the playing of the 4:03 and 5:14 night version. When I was listening to the radio it was getting almost as much airplay as Billie Jean at the time, which stormed up the charts and overtook it at about the same time.
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crapfromthepast
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From a top 40 radio jock's perspective (mine, that is), the song intro is extremely important.
We like to talk over the intro to the song (called "working the ramp") and stop talking just before the vocals kick in (called "hitting the post"). Old-time top 40 jocks are AMAZING at this skill. I encourage you to seek out YouTube clips of modern-day Bill Lee introducing songs at WCBS-FM in New York. He's pretty much the king of hitting the post nowadays, but in the '70s, virtually every top 40 station had an on-air staff that could do some variation of working the ramp and hitting the post. (Although probably not doing it while rhyming like Bill Lee.)
Point being: The intro is really important for airplay. It sells the song.
For us post-hitters, we tend to like song intros that are around 10 seconds, maybe 15 seconds or 20 seconds tops. Ten seconds gives us enough time to get in the call letters, plus something witty and brief.
Longer than 15 or 20 seconds, and it gets really difficult to fill the space, especially if you have to play the same song during your shift every day for weeks on end. The intro to "Take On Me" is close to a minute, and it's brutal to try and stretch the on-air talk out that long.
Let's see how the timings work out for the various versions of "Hungry Like The Wolf":
The 3:23 version has an 8-second intro (i.e., the vocals start at 0:08). That's a perfect length, and very easy to work with. I could work 8-second intros all day.
The 4:03 version also has an 8-second intro, which is also perfect.
The 5:14 version has a 78-second intro, so that the first vocals kick in at 1:18. This is pure torture! Unless you plan on reading the weather forecast or doing a traffic report, there's no conceivable way you can consistently get though 1:18 of banter to hit the post. It's just awful. (As a 12-inch single, it's great! But there's a reason that not many top 40 stations played lots of 12-inch singles on the air.)
So I'd be really curious to hear how on-air folks handled the 5:14 version of the song back then. If I were programming back then, I would have certainly used the 4:03 version, at least during the daytime hours. (The 5:14 version could work in overnights, when there was less chatter.)
As for my opinion of the mixes:
Almost 40 years later, I prefer the original mixes of the Rio tracks. They're simpler, less flashy, perhaps a little less cluttered, and I think they hang together as an album a little more uniformly than the remixes. I might not have thought so at the time, when big and flashy sounded bigger and flashier on the radio.
I've noticed that after many years of hindsight, for lesser hits that weren't pounded to death by repetition, I tend to gravitate toward original LP mixes over the the single mixes. Three examples, all fairly obscure:
"FNT" by Semisonic (from their 1996 debut album, two years before "Closing Time"). The original mix had charm and personality, while the single mix just sounded like any other 1996 hit.
"I Don't Care" by Shakespear's Sister (the fabulous follow-up to "Stay"). Same thing. The single mix added big guitars and sucked all the personality out of the song.
"Like Flames" by Berlin (the fabulous follow-up to "Take My Breath Away"). The 45 had some strange edits that cut out some 2-beat drum fills and ruined the flow of the song. The promo 45 did the same and remixed it to make it even more bland.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 10 June 2020 at 10:47pm
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EternalStatic
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Quote:
| The 5:14 version has a 78-second intro, so that the first vocals kick in at 1:18. This is pure torture! Unless you plan on reading the weather forecast or doing a traffic report, there's no conceivable way you can consistently |
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For whatever reason, our local station added the Extended Version of The Human League's "(Keep Feeling) Fascination" to regular rotation instead of the 45 (my guess is they had the commercial copy of its parent EP on file instead of a single), which has a 66-second intro before the first vocal. I more than once heard them use it as a bed for commercials that didn't have a music bed under them when coming out of a commercial break, so that when the spot was over, the music would fade up ever-so-slightly in the little 5- or 6-second gap leading into the first vocal.
I wonder now as an adult if this was against any sort of rules, as I suppose it could be argued that the "song" could be construed as being used to promote someone's business.
Edited by EternalStatic on 11 June 2020 at 10:00am
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crapfromthepast
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I do remember from back then that we weren't allowed to
use music from the rotation as music beds for pre-
produced stuff. I think if we read it live it was OK.
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EternalStatic
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Hmmm. As I was really young as a listener at that time, I’ll throw some
benefit of the doubt out there to say that perhaps they were reading live
and I just didn’t give them enough credit for the professional sheen of
their voices. It’s a possibility!
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NightAire
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I was at a "Rock 40" in 1989 and once talked up the intro of Stairway To Heaven by Led Zeppelin.
Once.
My boss almost took my head off for it! "That music is sacred. Do NOT talk over it!!"
We would actually have sub-posts we might hit, where more instruments like the drums kicked in, or a "yeah!" from the vocalist where we would always stop. We could have talked longer, but by 1989 we were getting into another "less talk is more" mentality.
Me personally, if what a jock was saying was interesting, he could talk all over the intro and exit as long as he didn't trample the lyrics.
I used to compare radio vs. CDs to the Lincoln Towncar vs. a bumper car at the carnival.
Both have their purposes. You wouldn't take a long road trip across country in a bumper car any more than you would pay three tickets to drive a Towncar around a tiny rink and run into other cars. (OK, some people might...)
If I wanted sonic purity and every note from start to finish, I bought the CD. If I wanted the flashing lights and noise of the midway, the "razzle-dazzle," I turned on the radio.
Frankly, now that radio is trying to be more down-to-earth... I find it pretty boring. It's a bit like a movie of Superman brushing his teeth, doing laundry, and washing dishes. Relatable, but not entertaining.
...Now back to your regularly scheduled Hungry Like The Wolf thread! :-D
Edited by NightAire on 12 June 2020 at 1:19am
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Duran Duran-"Hungry Like The Wolf"
