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Pat Downey
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| Posted: 31 May 2006 at 8:16pm | IP Logged
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Jim asked in another thread about the difference between the 45 version and the LP version of Patches by Clarence Carter. There is a horn overdub at 2:07 on the LP version that is not found on the 45 version (at least on the dj copy that I have).
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jimct
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| Posted: 31 May 2006 at 9:02pm | IP Logged
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Thanks, Pat. You truly have an AMAZING ear for sonic detail!
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 01 June 2006 at 12:14pm | IP Logged
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Aha! I've always wondered what the difference was too. Thanks, Pat.
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Indy500
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| Posted: 17 July 2008 at 7:29pm | IP Logged
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So.....
The database now has a "remixed 45 version faded :11 early" entry.
Are we talking a big differnce here or something along the lines of Joe Cocker's "The Letter."
Edited by Indy500 on 17 July 2008 at 7:31pm
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crapfromthepast
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Stereo LP version (3:11)
If you have the song on an Atlantic, Time-Life, or Ripete collection, it's the stereo LP version.
Of the compilations I have this on, I found just two different analog transfers.
The first is on Atlantic's 7-CD Atlantic Rhythm And Blues 1947-1974 Vol. 7 1969-1974 (1985). It sounds pretty nice here, with reasonable EQ, nice dynamic range, nice hiss on the fade, and no evidence of extra noise reduction. The same analog transfer is used on:- Time-Life's Superhits Vol. 4 1970 (1990) - shortens the tail of the fade
- Time-Life's AM Gold Vol. 2 1970 (1990) - this disc is identical to Superhits Vol. 4 1970, so this also shortens the tail of the fade
- Atlantic's Atlantic Rhythm And Blues 1947-1974 Vol. 8 1970-1974 (1991) - differently-EQ'd digital clone
- Time-Life's Solid Gold Soul Vol. 5 1970 (1996) - shortens tail of fade even more than Superhits
- Reader's Digest's 4-CD American Pie (1998) - also shortens tail of fade
- Time-Life's 2-CD Singers And Songwriters Vol. 16 1969-1972 (2001) - digitally exactly 2.99 dB louder than Superhits Vol. 4 1970, so this also shortens the tail of the fade
There's a new analog transfer on Rhino's Didn't It Blow Your Mind Vol. 16 (1995), which is a slight improvement over the Atlantic disc. It extends out just a little farther than the Atlantic mastering, and also has great sound. There's a digitally identical clone on Rhino's Billboard Hot Soul Hits 1970 (1995).
Mono 45 version (3:11)
It's a dedicated mix, not a fold-down. It's really close to a fold-down, but not quite. At 2:02, after the word "fields", the LP version has a little accent horn in the left channel, which is not in the 45 version. There's another one at 2:08, at the end of the word "family", and a third at 2:14, on the word "lord". Plus, the fade point starts in the same place as the LP version, but the fade starts much more gradually than the LP version.
The mono 45 version isn't on CD.
UK 45 version (2:59) (Edit: I'd previously labeled this as "Non-hit stereo remix". Mark M recently discovered that this is the UK 45 version, as per a post below.)
Based on listings in the database and their copyright dates, this remix appears to have originated (Edit: on CD) on a Rhino compilation called The Muscle Shoals Sound (1993). The liner notes are pretty detailed, giving credit to the writers, producers, and all the musicians on every track, but they don't say anything about remixes. (Edit: That's because it's not a remix.)
Regardless, this remix sure does sound sparkly clean. (The original mix sounded just fine to my ears, so I'm not sure why this even exists.) The instrument placement in the soundstage and the reverb match the original mix very nicely.
Compared to the original mix, there's an instrument missing here and there in the mix. For example, at 0:28, over the line "little money from the crops he raised", there are background singers in the stereo LP and mono 45 versions, but no background singers in this remix. Also, the tonality of the keyboard is a little different in this remix, compared to the stereo LP and mono 45 versions.
This remix is missing the little horn accents at 2:02, 2:08, and 2:14, so maybe it's an attempt to create a stereo mix that is mixed like the 45. I have no idea why it fades so early, though.
The Muscle Shoals Sound isn't cheap nowadays, so I'd recommend more affordable options. The 2:59 remix shows up on a few budget Rhino and Flashback collections from 1997 and 1998, almost certainly with mastering based on The Muscle Shoals Sound.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 30 July 2021 at 8:58am
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sriv94
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| Posted: 04 September 2020 at 4:42pm | IP Logged
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crapfromthepast wrote:
It's a dedicated mix, not a fold-down. It's really close to a fold-down, but not quite. At 2:02, after the word "fields", the LP version has a little
accent horn in the left channel, which is not in the 45 version. There's another one at 2:08, at the end of the word "family", and a third at 2:14, on the
word "lord". Plus, the fade point starts in the same place as the LP version, but the fade starts much more gradually than the LP version.
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This is why this board is amazing. I never would've picked up that difference up in a gazillion years.
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AutumnAarilyn
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| Posted: 04 September 2020 at 4:47pm | IP Logged
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The mono version should be on Kent's The Fame Singles
Volume 2 1970-73.
https://www.discogs.com/Clarence-Carter-The-Fame-
Singles-Volume-2-1970-73/release/5094232
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davidclark
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| Posted: 04 September 2020 at 5:00pm | IP Logged
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Very nice to have this info, Ron.
It would be interesting to hear the stereo promo side of the 45, was it the LP
version, or another mix?
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davidclark
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AutumnAarilyn, AFAIK, it is stereo on that Kent CD.
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 04 September 2020 at 11:35pm | IP Logged
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AutumnAarilyn wrote:
The mono version should be on
Kent's The Fame Singles
Volume 2 1970-73.
https://www.discogs.com/Clarence-Carter-The-Fame-
Singles-Volume-2-1970-73/release/5094232 |
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As David said, it's not, it's stereo on that Kent CD. I
wrote them a letter complaining about it at the time,
and they wrote me back and said or implied that the mono
tape could not be located.
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Paul C
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| Posted: 05 September 2020 at 8:16am | IP Logged
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Many of the Atlantic/Atco single mixes from the time
that singles were still mono but albums were already
being released only in stereo (late 1960s and early
1970s) have never appeared on CD. Even most
Atlantic/Atco 'Oldies Series' reissue 45s from this
period are stereo, including in addition to "Patches",
Aretha Franklin's "Think" and Lulu's "Oh Me Oh My".
Almost all their reissue 45s from all other time
periods are the 45 mixes. It was long speculated that
the Atlantic/Atco mono LP masters had survived but the
single masters had not, and that therefore no mono
tapes existed for songs not issued on a mono LP. Steve
Hoffman, however, has long claimed that these mono
masters do still exist, people just haven't been
looking for them in the right place. Someone did
apparently look in the right place for the Aretha
singles release a few years back.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 30 July 2021 at 9:04am | IP Logged
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Mark M discovered that the 2:59 version (originally listed above as non-hit stereo remix) is actually the UK 45 version. I'll paraphrase an email from Mark:
A collector friends of Mark's in Norway asked Mark for the UK stereo 45 mix of "Patches", because the UK stock 45 was stereo, not mono as in the US. The collector sent Mark a dub of his UK 45, and it turned out to match the odd 2:59 version from Muscle Shoals CD exactly. Same fade points and everything.
So we can rule out a modern-day remix, and can safely identify the 2:59 versions as the UK 45 version, which was stereo, and which did indeed exist when the song was a hit in 1970.
Thanks to all who contributed info to this thread. We certainly can't figure out all this stuff in isolation!
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Hykker
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| Posted: 01 August 2021 at 8:51am | IP Logged
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davidclark wrote:
It would be interesting to hear the stereo promo side of
the 45, was it the LP
version, or another mix? |
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I don't believe the promo was in stereo, mine has
"Patches" in mono on both sides, which agrees with what
I see on Discogs.
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MMathews
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| Posted: 01 August 2021 at 2:29pm | IP Logged
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Interestingly,
45cat.com shows a second promo labeled "stereo" here:
https://www.45cat.com/record/452748us
MM
Edited by MMathews on 01 August 2021 at 2:30pm
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Topic: Patches - Clarence Carter
