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aaronk
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| Posted: 08 February 2021 at 3:29pm | IP Logged
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crapfromthepast wrote:
| My logic was that if the original version was doing just fine, there would have been no need to release a second version. |
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That logic doesn't quite make sense to me. If the song "wasn't doing well," how would it make any difference to change the last 15 seconds as it's fading out? Everything else up to that point is identical between the two versions, and most people would not have noticed the difference between the two endings. I actually think your tape damage theory is far more likely. I'd guess that the song was doing much better than expected, and there was a need to press more singles. Perhaps when threading the master tape on the machine, the engineer physically damaged it. (A lot of reel tapes are stored "tails out," meaning the ending of the song is on the outside, and it has to be rewound before playing.) All we can do is speculate at this point, but I can't see why the record company would bother to change the fade out when the song was riding high on the charts.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 08 February 2021 at 3:53pm | IP Logged
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Yeah, I'm stumped too. (If there really was tape damage for the first 45 version, then that would explain why it's never appeared anywhere, ever, after the first 45 pressing. Still more speculation.)
We'll just file this in the same category as all the Quincy Jones-produced singles that had multiple releases.
I'll change "hit"/"non-hit" to "first" and "second" in my library.
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thecdguy
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| Posted: 08 February 2021 at 4:48pm | IP Logged
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To add on to the list of versions of the song that smallworld mentioned, there is also an "Edited Remix" that was on the B-Side of
the "Love Will Save The Day" single in 1988. As far as I know, its only CD appearance is on a 3" CD Single from Japan. I think it's
an edited version of the longer Dance Re-Mix from John "Jellybean" Benitez.
How Will I Know (Edited Remix)
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 08 February 2021 at 7:41pm | IP Logged
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And this just got even more confusing. I pulled out all 3 CDs of Whitney's first album that I have - compared them to each other and to the video links provided above. The differences in "How Will I Know" have to do with hearing (or not) the word "heartbeat" under Whitney's singing "Ooooh" near the end of the song. That's really all I was focusing on, other than the obvious different intros.
The 1st pressing (deadwax says ARCD-8212 2A8 61) has:
How Will I Know - 1st mix starting with keyboard riff (not drums-only) but no word "heartbeat" under "ooh". (4:18) I really blasted the fade loudly under headphones and can't hear the word.
Greatest Love - acoustic piano
The 2nd pressing (deadwax says ARCD-8212 20A1 66) has:
How Will I Know - single mix starting with drums - has no "heartbeat" under "ooooh" (4:25) (Again, I really blasted the fade loudly under headphones and can't hear the word.)
Deluxe 25th Anniversary Edition
Greatest Love - acoustic piano (like original pressing)
How Will I Know - single mix starting with drums - has no "heartbeat" under "ooooh" (4:24)
Greatest Love - elec piano
Now, at first I thought: I'm either going crazy or deaf (although they're not mutually exclusive). But I listened to the 2nd music video (official) that was linked to above in the thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3-hY-hlhBg
-and I clearly hear "heartbeat" loud as day in that (under Whitney's lead "ooh").
But when I listened to the original video that starts with keyboard riff -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iciuDRPCHVo
I don't think I hear the "heartbeat" at 4:17 - if I do, it's barely, barely there - but it's definitely not anywhere near as present as it is in the popular video with the single mix. (But I really don't think I hear the word there.)
So is it possible that I have the 'full length single mix' that no one has been able to find on CD? I could share the WAVs with an audiophile who can easily hear the differences. (Since Aaron brought up the detailed differences, I'm thinking you might be able to decipher everything.)
UPDATE: I just listened to the links on page 3 described as:
1) Original LP Version
2) Single Remix
3) Single Remix w LP Ending
I think I'm BARELY hearing "heartbeat" on (1) - which MAY be consistent with my CDs. But I'm hearing "heartbreat" really loud and present on 3 (single mix w/ LP ending") - even on my rinky dink computer speakers now. So I'd almost say this mix called "(single mix w/ LP ending") isn't really the "LP ending" but a louder "heartbeat" than the LP mix! I'll be curious to see/hear the audophiles' thoughts on all this.
Edited by EdisonLite on 09 February 2021 at 1:58pm
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BSharp
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| Posted: 09 February 2021 at 7:10am | IP Logged
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This is one of the most interesting threads I've read
in this group. Seriously, you guys are awesome.
Funny thing: I went and listened to my copy of this, a
rip from the "Whitney Houston" CD; I bought it used
and it's got the original LP version of "How Will I
Know". I was kind of disappointed to find this out
after reading this discussion, because I much prefer
the the single remix version with the drum intro.
I then went and pulled my original vinyl LP of this...
and it gets weirder (I bought this copy new in 1985).
It's got the acoustic piano intro version of "The
Greatest Love Of All" and the Single Remix w/ LP
ending of "How Will I Know". My LP doesn't even have
the LP version!
The runout on my LP says AL8-8212-SB10. Oddly enough,
I can't any info about this variation on Discogs.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 09 February 2021 at 7:11am | IP Logged
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The mix where you can hear "heartbeat" sung loudly and clearly is the full single remix (version #2 from your above list). This is the one that is not on CD.
The one that has no "heartbeat" is version #3 (single remix w/LP ending), which is consistent with your findings as it appears on the 2nd pressing and 25th anniversary issue of the full-length CD.
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Underground Dub
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| Posted: 09 February 2021 at 9:52am | IP Logged
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My theory as to why the spliced version exists is that it was created for the parent Whitney Houston album.
Once it became a hit, the label updated the mix of "How Will I Know" on the album. Someone noticed the end was shorter and spliced the original longer ending onto the single remix to create this updated album master - which then wound up on later pressings of the single either by mistake or due to the judgement of someone who would have made those decisions at Arista.
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 09 February 2021 at 2:17pm | IP Logged
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OK, Aaron, I think I was getting lost in my minutiae of studying the versions.
BTW, when I first read the comment "single mix with LP ending", I didn't know where they did the splice until listening - and realized it was just 7 seconds before the song's end WHILE the song was in fade-out mode. I don't think it was done for creative/artistic purposes or to increase the chances for the song become a hit. It's just SO LATE and during a fade :)
The only reason I can think of is a reason proposed: The single remix master tape got destroyed during this end part of the song.
The last theory given above (someone spliced the original ending onto the single remix to create a longer version on the CD album) - at first I thought, that's a good a reason as any. But then I thought, does that really extend it at all - both versions (from "Ooooh" to the end of the song) are about 7 seconds. So it wouldn't make it any longer. It's not like it would change the splice point from having 7 seconds coming after it to 14 seconds after it. Right? Or am I missing something in this theory?
This is definitely one of the more interesting, in-depth, in-the-trenches thread on the forum :)
I also wonder - I know this was released near the end of 1985, but wouldn't at least one country have released the single in CD format at that point? The single remix would be preserved there, even if Arista/US got their single master tape destroyed at the end. And therefore, if there's at least one country that released this single in CD format, we can find it (I suppose). Or were no singles coming out on CD either commercially or promo-wise in November 1985?
Edited by EdisonLite on 09 February 2021 at 2:20pm
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 09 February 2021 at 3:10pm | IP Logged
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BTW, Aaron, how did you even first notice that "heartbeat" was missing under the "ooh" during the fade out? Did you listen and think "where's the 'heartbeat'? If so, you have superhumean hearing, my friend! Or did you notice the change in EQ there (I hadn't noticed that at all, TBH) and that made you explore what was going on? Or did you happen to do that thing where you cancel out 2 versions to see what's left (and different) about one of the mixes - and that brought it to your attention?
BTW, since my 25th deluxe edition has the hit-version video (with single remix) on DVD, I'm thinking of transferring the song to a CD-R this afternoon to have a WAV, if anyone wants it. It goes through analog to record, but I *think* it will still be lossless and a better source to substitute than the vinyl that someone else used to plug in the ending. If anyone else has the deluxe edition - or Whitney's "Greatest Hits" containing 30 songs on DVD - and has the ability do a digital transfer from DVD to WAV (which I can't), that would truly be a digital transfer, not going through an analog transfer. Just a suggestion. But I'll do what I can at least :)
Edited by EdisonLite on 09 February 2021 at 3:12pm
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 09 February 2021 at 6:49pm | IP Logged
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Things couldn't get any weirder with these "How Will Know" single vs. album mixes, right? Well it turns out ... wrong!
So I just transferred the music video of "How Will I Know" on the DVD portion of the 25th anniversary deluxe edition to a WAV (and btw, good news ... it was lossless. The graph went all the way up to the top of the spectral view. So say what you will about analog transfers but as long as they're lossless, I'm ok with that.)
Anyway, it's definitely the same (2nd) video that starts with only the drumbeats and has her walking through colorful hallways. But the audio on THIS video in the DVD collection has no "heartbeat" behind the "Oooh" near the end of the song!!!
That means they made a video of the single mix with the "heartbeat" (as we've seen on YouTube). Then later (or simultaneously) they used they same video (visual component) and dubbed in a slightly different version with an ending that doesn't have "heartbeat" under the wooh. Mind you now, this is still the single mix that starts with drums.
Why bother to have a 2nd version of the "hallway" video with the slightly different altered audio at the end??? We theorized they did this on the CD because the audio master (of the single mix) was destroyed by the time they got around to pressing a new version of the CD with the single mix of "How Will I Know". But they already had a perfectly fine video that had the "heartbeat" overdub created. Why spend more time and money to replace the audio in that video (which had audio that was not defective in the trailout)? This makes no sense - and also makes me think the theory of why this "single with LP end" version was used for CD.
Does anyone know if the 45 actually had "heartbeat"?
And can anyone explain why there would be a 3rd version of the video? I get the 1st one was for the album mix and not very flashy. Then the 2nd one was made for the single remix - and a huge step up visual-wise, like I said with the walking through colorful hallways. (The 1st video was kind of boring to watch, though I still like it). But this 3rd video? To change the audio ever so slightly??? I'm really at a loss, guys.
Edited by EdisonLite on 09 February 2021 at 6:53pm
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aaronk
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| Posted: 09 February 2021 at 7:11pm | IP Logged
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Gordon, the splice occurs exactly at 4:16 just before the drum fill. Tacking the LP ending on makes the song run 4:32. The original single mix completely fades out by 4:30. So, you're right. There's virtually nothing "extended" about the ending.
At the 4:16 mark of the 2nd 45 version, the EQ and instrumentation changes enough to where I immediately picked up on it. Perhaps the reason I was listening carefully was because I originally noticed it on a TM GoldDisc. Knowing that they often took things from vinyl, added noise reduction, etc., I was probably scrutinizing their copy. I certainly didn't remember the "heartbeat" background vocal was missing; that's something I discovered when A/B-ing the ending with the original single mix ending.
As for your DVD collection, I'd be willing to bet money that the engineer replaced the audio of the original video to enhance the sound quality. Record labels have done that many times over the years, as it seems video master tapes tend to have hissy audio. My guess is that there was only one "hallway" video ever originally made, and it has the first single mix.
As for the "heartbeat" version, I have several copies--both promo and stock--and most (all?) of them have the original single mix with no RE in the matrix. In fact, when I restored the ending on my file, I had six different sources to work with, and all of them had the original single mix ending. The only reason I even knew there was a second issued "RE" version was from this thread.
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 09 February 2021 at 7:35pm | IP Logged
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That makes sense that they upgraded the "hallway" video's audio for the DVD, released decades later, to have less hissy sound quality. I hadn't thought of that. I also have Whitney's "Greatest Hits" DVD with 30 songs - I bet it has the same audio upgrade. BUT, I checked and I also have the VHS commercially released tape called the "#1 Video Hits", containing a total of 4 videos. The main hit singles from the 1st album. I bet if I pulled that out, it would have the "heartbeat" - because it wasn't released decades later. And it would be from a non-vinyl source. Like I said, I used the VHS commercially available tape of a Belinda Carlisle collection where they used the single remix for "I Feel the Magic" (follow-up to "Mad About You"). It was the only place at the time to get the much-improved single mix from a tape source and not vinyl. And also like I said, years later that music video was re-released on DVD but didn't sound as good.
On a similar note, when I upgraded Carly Simon's "Martha's Vineyard" concert from VHS to DVD, I found the DVD to be much inferior soundwise to the VHS.
Edited by EdisonLite on 09 February 2021 at 7:37pm
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NightAire
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To make sure I understand:
There were two singles released, one the full remix and the other the remix with the LP version tacked on for the last seven (EDIT: fifteen) seconds. At this point we're considering both of these "hit" mixes since they seem to have both been out while the single was climbing.
These same two versions were released as promos to radio stations, first the full remix and then the remix with the LP version tacked on the last seven (EDIT: fifteen) seconds. Both could easily be considered the "hit radio version" depending on when a particular station picked up the song.
If a radio station switches to another song before the last seven (EDIT: fifteen) seconds, there is no difference to be heard between the two promos.
The version with the tacked on LP ending is available many places digitally, while we have yet to find the full single remix without edit on CD.
Does that sum it up accurately?
Edited by NightAire on 10 February 2021 at 12:24pm
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aaronk
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| Posted: 10 February 2021 at 7:31am | IP Logged
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Technically, Gene, it's the last ~15 seconds, but everything else is right.
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AndrewChouffi
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| Posted: 10 February 2021 at 7:44am | IP Logged
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My promo copy is the RE-1 version.
Can anyone confirm that they have a promo that is the
non-RE-1 version?
I'm wondering if radio stations got two versions (and
how many days/weeks apart)!
Does anyone in radio have any remembrance?
Andy
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aaronk
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| Posted: 10 February 2021 at 8:16am | IP Logged
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I definitely have promo copies without the RE, pressed on nice quality vinyl. As a kid, my stock copy was on styrene, but I think I may currently have both vinyl and styrene stock copies without the RE.
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AndrewChouffi
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| Posted: 10 February 2021 at 9:18am | IP Logged
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Thanks Aaron.
If promo copies were issued with both endings, my only
logical conjecture is that some programmers out there
didn't like how the original single mix dumped-out
prematurely and wanted the slightly extended album
ending.
By the way, does anybody out there know who mixed the
single? Was it Jellybean Benitez?
I ask because the single uses production elements of
the Jellybean 12" remix, but he wasn't credited on the
45 (Michael Barbiero was credited on the LP).
Andy
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aaronk
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| Posted: 10 February 2021 at 11:03am | IP Logged
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Again, I highly doubt programmers were clamoring for a few extra seconds of audio. As Gordon already pointed out, the new ending doesn't really extend the song at all. The difference in length is 4:30 vs. 4:32.
I think the real reason both versions were pressed on promos is because radio needed new copies when the "old" ones were wearing out. This happened regularly, as I understand it, because some stations played vinyl directly and not carts. 45s got cue burnt and worn. By the time additional promo copies were needed, perhaps the original single master had already been doctored for reasons still unknown.
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AndrewChouffi
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| Posted: 10 February 2021 at 6:08pm | IP Logged
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Yes, Aaron, I forgot that the labels would sometimes
reservice a hot record to replace cue-burnt copies! I
figured by then just about all stations would cart up
the tracks, but you're right, I'm sure a measure of
stations (especially in smaller markets) played vinyl
directly.
Andy
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aaronk
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| Posted: 11 February 2021 at 8:48am | IP Logged
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It's anyone's guess, Andy, but I think if the intent was to send a "new version" to programmers, it would've been called out as such on the record label. In this case, the change was subtle and not noted at all, other than the tiny "RE" in the matrix.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Whitney Houston - How Will I Know
