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jimct
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| Posted: 30 May 2007 at 4:02am | IP Logged
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My commercial 45, which is stereo, has a listed time of (2:57), but an actual time of (3:00). Unfortunately, current "45 Version" notated CDs in the database all state running times of between (2:54) and (2:56).
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Todd Ireland
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I just compared Jim's commercial 45 dub of "I Can Help" to Billy Swan's Best of CD on Epic/Legacy 65218, which contains the "LP version" according to the database. I found that the 45 runs much slower, but otherwise appears to be just an early fade of the LP. Based on the CD times in the database, it doesn't appear any of the discs containing the 45 length run at the correct 45 speed (and this speed difference accounts for why none of those CDs have a length of 3:00 like on the 45). That said, all CDs with the "45 version" comment should probably be amended to state "45 length but LP speed", while all CDs with "LP version" comments should be changed to read "LP length and speed".
Edited by Todd Ireland on 13 January 2008 at 9:30pm
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Pat Downey
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The LP version of "I Can Help" fades before the audience applause while the 45 does contain audience applause at the end of the song hence my decision to call one a 45 version rather than length.
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Hykker
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Pat Downey wrote:
| The LP version of "I Can Help" fades before the audience applause while the 45 does contain audience applause at the end of the song hence my decision to call one a 45 version rather than length. |
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Not on my album. The 45 version ends at the first of several false endings contained on the album version, timing shown as 4:00.
Interesting discrepancy between the jacket and the label on my copy of this album. The cover lists it as being Monument 33279 (distributed by Columbia/Epic), but the record itself is Milestone 33279 (distributed by Fantasy). Perhaps distribution changed at some point, but there were old jackets leftover? I bought the album at a used record store so I don't know the history. It's the "I Can Help" album...cover art showing him in a wooded field behind a clawfoot bathtub with a swan in it.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 15 January 2008 at 11:18pm | IP Logged
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Pat Downey wrote:
| The LP version of "I Can Help" fades before the audience applause while the 45 does contain audience applause at the end of the song hence my decision to call one a 45 version rather than length. |
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In the past, I know there's been debate as to whether a situation like this one is an issue of "version" or "length". Of course, you have the final word on these matters, Pat, and I respect your decision. But do you agree that we also have a speed issue with "I Can Help" that probably warrants some kind of notation in the database?
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edtop40
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| Posted: 03 August 2008 at 8:17pm | IP Logged
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my commercial 45 issued as monument 8621 states a run time on the label as 2:57 but actually runs 3:00........and thanks to john and paul's re-creation with the proper pitch alteration, another 45 quest bits the dust.....thanks boys!!!!
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eriejwg
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Happy to oblige, Ed! Actually, my initial recreation without hearing the 45 ran 2:59. Listening to the 45 gave me a chance to give the Have a Nice Day copy I had the proper speed.
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TomDiehl1
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Does anybody have an original promotional copy of this 45? Mine is a mono/stereo Re-Service and the mono side lists 2:57 and does run 3:00 as well (it seems to just be a fold-down of the stereo side). I'm curious to see how original promo pressings would've been labeled.
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jimct
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Tom, like yours, my promo 45 copy also says "DJ Re-Service" on both sides. From my experience, the Columbia family of labels would sometimes add that comment onto a promo 45 label, usually for a big hit. I always thought that this was simply their way of indicating that a "second promo 45 copy pressing run" had been done, usually for a very popular song. Obviously, the bigger a hit is, the more radio spins it gets. Which means more 45 copies naturally get worn out, hence the need for/station requests made to the label for additional copies. And if/when the label's initial promo 45's pressing run's supply is exhausted, they would sometimes opt to do a second, "re-service" promo 45 pressing run, that's all. If not, they would also sometimes opt to instead send radio stations "stock" replacement 45 copies, with either a "Promotional Copy-Not For Sale" rubber stamp or sticker affixed to the 45 label. Tom, I picked up my "I Can Help" promo 45 copy used, and it has a "12/5/74" date written on the label in pen. Now, this song debuted back on 9/28/74, peaked in Nov., and was actually on the way down the charts by 12/5/74. My promo copy is styrene, which, for radio purposes, doesn't hold up 1/100th as well as a vinyl copy does. For the many stations still playing records on-air (and not carts) at this time, "cue-burn" of the first note of styrene 45 copies happened quickly. I'm sure Monument/Columbia were getting tons of radio requests for more 45 copies of the #1 hit, "I Can Help", as radio was playin' it heavy, and they were blowing through/cue-burning copy after copy of it. I just thought that the person wrote "12/5/74" on my promo so they knew when this particular 45 copy had been placed in the studio for airplay, not because it was a different mix or anything. My promo 45's stereo side deadwax is "AB ZS8-8621-3", while my stock 45, (which I bought as soon as it debuted on the chart) has deadwax of "AA ZS8 8621-3". Long story short, Tom, I believe that all "I Can Help" promo 45 copies, whether or not they state "Re-Service" on them, contain the exact same version.
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Hykker
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Apparently, my promo is a "first pressing" since there's no "reservice" notation on it. Matrix #s are the same as Jim's.
I didn't realize that CBS-distributed labels issued "special rush reservice" singles as late as 1974, I don't think I've ever seen one post-1970.
I do recall seeing some reserviced CBS 45s in special sleeves with "here's a fresh copy, thanks" printed on them in the mid-ish 70s.
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TomDiehl1
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Thanks Jim... my copy has 10/15/74 handwritten on both labels. Otherwise it appears to be identical to yours.
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Yah Shure
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Hykker wrote:
I didn't realize that CBS-distributed labels issued "special rush reservice" singles as late as 1974, I don't think I've ever seen one post-1970.
I do recall seeing some reserviced CBS 45s in special sleeves with "here's a fresh copy, thanks" printed on them in the mid-ish 70s. |
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Here's a special rush reservice from 1976, for the record that, in my opinion, was the biggest "shoulda-woulda-coulda" that never happened during the '70s. Sailor's "Glass Of Champagne" was certainly no slouch; it had already hit #2 in the U.K., and garnered Billboard's sole ChartBound top single pick for the week ending February 14, 1976.
Unfortunately, the ChartBound mention in the upper right corner of that week's Hot 100 was as close as it ever got to any Billboard chart. To my ears, it was a smash, and every person I played it for at the time thought so, too. So what happened? Not enough promotion from Epic? I stopped in at the Columbia-Epic promotion office in Minneapolis to ask about it. The Epic promo rep said it was "a smash," and gave me one of the miniature bottles of champagne that they'd just sent out to the region's secondary stations to promote the 45.
There was enough of a push nationally that Epic did do a special rush reservice later on. I never date-stamped my reservice copy, but it was sent well after the initial promo, which had arrived during the first week of February, '76. (The reserviced 45's orange Epic sleeve also looked like a rush job: the die-cut hole was too high on the front, and it was so oversaturated with orange ink that the color bled through to the inside and onto the white stereo side label.)
But somewhere along the line, U.S. radio didn't bite. There was a follow-up 45 from the Trouble LP, but "Girls, Girls, Girls" didn't attract any significant attention. Epic released neither the next U.K. 45, "Stiletto Heels," nor its LP, The Third Step here in the U.S.
The Sailor example is more in line with what my experience was with Columbia's special rush reservices. I didn't find them to be replacements for worn-out copies. Instead, they were sometimes used for new edits, mixes or variations, such as Chicago's Japenese (sic) version of "Questions 67 And 68."
But mostly, they were intended to ensure that key radio stations had copies of a record on hand that had taken an unusually long period of time to break or else had just become more of a priority for the label. Knowing how limited the holding space was for storing new, but yet-to-be-added promo 45s at most radio stations, there was often a policy of tossing out the assumed stiffs after a certain amount of time had elapsed from the dates stamped on the labels. The rush reservices were the best way to make certain that every key station had a copy in its possession, while at the same time, saying, in effect, "Hey! This is a priority!" This is likely the scenario for "I Can Help," which was definitely a left-field hit. Once the ball finally got rolling, it didn't stop.
Jim, you mentioned the common practice of stamping or stickering stock copies, and in my experience, that was far and away the preferred method of keeping radio stations supplied with clean copies. It was definitely far less expensive than ordering additional press runs and printing the labels for a dedicated reservice. At Heilicher Brothers-Minneapolis, whenever any of the stations in our region needed fresh copies after we'd already mailed out all of the promo copies, we'd pull them from stock in the warehouse, mail them to the stations and charge back the labels.
I found the "Here's A Fresh Copy - Thanks"-sleeved 45s to be intended more for replacing worn-out copies (the sleeve has a 1977 copyright date on the front corner not shown in the photo.) One of those sleeves I have contains a promo-stamped stock copy of James Taylor's "Handy Man." Then again, another accompanied a promo copy of the country band Shylo's "Gotta Travel On," which reached a whopping number 91 on the country chart. Clearly not many, if any stations ever needed a fresh copy of that one!
I was tempted to draw a couple of hundred-dollar bills tucked into that handshake on the fresh copy sleeve... ;)
Edited by Yah Shure on 04 March 2009 at 8:44pm
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jimct
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Yah Shure, your point is well taken. Each individual case is different, and I agree that "second promo 45 runs" were both expensive to do, and not all that common. But I believe it did occur for the song in this thread, "I Can Help" which was why I'd mentioned it. I also think the "promo/stock replacement copy thing" had a bit to do with the number of in-person station visits by the label reps themselves, and how large/important the station/market was. My station in CT was near to both the huge NYC and Boston markets. Although not as big/important as those guys, because of this, we would generally get the all of major label reps stopping by the station in person, usually once/twice a month. They'd normally have spare promo 45 copies sitting in the trunk of their car to give us (as well as sometimes taking us out for a nice meal, or hooking us up backstage at a show by one of their major acts in town. Some reps were great, some were OK, and some were awful, but "in-person" visits, although harder, always worked out better for them, and they knew it. They got more time to make their point to us (which they always did), and we loved both their "TLC" and their expense accounts, but that's a different story...) Obviously, we also got tons of 45 copies sent to us by mail. Yah Shure, I also fully agree with your excellent point about the labels using literally dozens of different "gimmicks" to get a new release to stand out, and, now that I recall, that did mean not limiting label terms like "Special Rush Re-Service" to just hits, but would also use it for new, unknown artists. We'd sometimes get plain, white label promo "test pressings", with hand-written title/artist info, that would often give that "brand new, fresh off the press" feel to a new release. Yah Shure, I'd forgotten about that "Here's A Fresh Copy - Thanks" promo sleeve! I also somehow remember another situation, in the case of the mid-charting 1978 Hot 100 entry "Substitute" by Clout, on Epic. The label had made a bright orange, generic promo 45 pic sleeve with a big "ear" on it. We already had 5 copies of the 45 on hand, but they then sent us another promo copy, this time inside a special sleeve, saying "We Believe In This...Please Listen Again!!!". Sometimes it would take many weeks for a song to start gaining momentum/airplay in some other markets, and then ultimately become a song that the reps would bring up to us, and that we would then consider for airplay, especially for a new artist. That "sleeve gimmick" was also a way for them to let us know that they, the label, were still "working" the record. The reps would only have a few minutes to speak with us each week on the phone, and you could always quickly tell which records they were actively/aggressively trying to get us to add that week (start playing). They usually had a runaway "#1 add priority" that week, and then they'd usually squeeze in a mention about one or two of their other records before we wrapped up with them. The vast majority of promo 45s sent to us by the labels never got a SINGLE mention to us, from their OWN label reps; just the nature of the beast, I guess. As a result, as Yah Shure correctly states with his "Sailor" example, tragically, many GREAT songs never became hits. And vice versa, actually. Which songs became "label priorities" was so much a "mystery meat" part of the process, I suppose. But one thing was for certain: Once a label stopped "working" a record, it was dead. Hope this isn't too much "inside baseball", folks!
Edited by jimct on 04 March 2009 at 9:54pm
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Yah Shure
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Jim, thanks for mentioning the "Big Ear" sleeve! I could picture it mentally while scanning the Fresh Copy sleeve, but wasn't about to just start digging around for one... until you mentioned "Substitute." Both of my copies in said sleeves also carry the Special Rush Reservice designation on the labels, so that phrase was in use at least through November 10, 1978 (the date stamped on the labels.)
Too much "inside baseball?" No way! Such were some of the behind-the-scenes parts of the whys and whatnots of what did (or didn't) make certain records top-40 hits. You are dead on with your "once a label stopped 'working' a record, it was dead" statement. Truer words have never been spoken.
That "mystery meat" part pretty much sums it up, too. :)
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davidclark
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Just listening to the LP version of this track (first time in years). At 1:40 where
he sings "do you good", there are background vocals that I don't recall hearing
before (having had the 45 and being used to that). Checking the 45, they are
not there. More little differences to note.
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crapfromthepast
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Just some mastering notes.
The 45 and LP have different mixes. For example, the LP mix has background vocals at 1:37 on the line "do you good," while the 45 mix lacks these background vocals. They also play at different speeds, with the LP being faster than the 45. (I don't have the song on vinyl to check. The YouTube videos of the 45 being played are all over the map and unreliable; I found two of them that differ in speed by about 4%!)
45 version (3:00)
The first CD to include the 45 version was Rhino's Billboard Top Rock 'N' Roll Hits 1974 (1989), where it ran 2:55 and (according to the database) ran at the LP speed. The same analog transfer is used on:- Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 7 1974 (1990) - digitally identical
- Time-Life's 2-CD Classic Country Vol. 4 1970-1974 (1998) - digitally exactly 1 dB louder
- Time-Life's 2-CD Seventies Music Explosion One-Hit Wonders (2005) - digitally exactly 2.4 dB louder
It sounds just fine on all of the above.
There was a new analog transfer on Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 13 (1990), which has a slightly different EQ that tames the brashness of the guitar solo. I prefer this EQ over the BB disc, but it's not a huge difference. The speed is pretty much the same as the BB disc, as is the length of the tail on the fade. The same analog transfer is used on:- Rhino's Rock This Town Rockabilly Hits Vol. 2 (1991) - digitally identical
- JCI's Only Country 1970-1974 (1995) - left and right channels are swapped
- Time-Life's AM Gold Vol. 21 1974 (1996) - digitally exactly 0.5 dB louder
- Razor & Tie's 7-CD 70 Number One Hits Of The 70s Vol. 4 (1998) - digitally identical
- Realm's 3-CD Greatest Hits Of The '70s Vol. 1 (2001)
LP version (about 4:00)
I have the LP version on 4 CDs that are all based on a single mastering. I'd bet that they're all based on the mastering from Sony Music Special Products' Billy Swan Best (1990), but I can't confirm. All run about 0.7% slower than the 45 masterings listed above.
The 4 CDs are:- K-Tel's Seems Like Yesterday Vol. 2 Mid 70's (1989) - tail of fade just barely reaches the last note and applause
- Sony's Rock N' 70's (1993) - differently EQ'd digital clone of Seems Like Yesterday, but (somehow) extends out to applause and cheer after the last note
- Time-Life's 2-CD Singers And Songwriters Vol. 3 1974-1975 (1999) - tail of fade doesn't reach the last note before the applause
- Sony's 5-CD Epic 50th Anniversary Collection (2003) - digitally exactly 1.5 dB louder than Singers And Songwriters Vol. 3 1974-1975 but faded from 2:50 to 3:01; this is the LP mix faded roughly to match the 45 length; didn't exist in 1974
There's a different analog transfer on EMI Australia's 5-CD Seventies Complete Vol. 2 (1999), which fades before it reaches the last note.
My recommendations
The sound quality on all of the above discs is pretty good. Decent source tapes, excellent dynamic range (no clipping or extra compression/limiting), and no evidence of noise reduction on any of them.
For the 45 version, go with Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 13 (1990). It may need some speed correction to truly match the 45.
For the LP version, go with Sony's Rock N' 70's (1993), which has the longest tail on the fade of the discs that I have.
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LunarLaugh
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crapfromthepast wrote:
Just some mastering notes.
The 45 and LP have different mixes. For example, the
LP mix has background vocals at 1:37 on the line "do
you good," while the 45 mix lacks these background
vocals. They also play at different speeds, with the
LP being faster than the 45. (I don't have the song on
vinyl to check. The YouTube videos of the 45 being
played are all over the map and unreliable; I found two
of them that differ in speed by about 4%!)
45 version (3:00)
The first CD to include the 45 version was Rhino's
Billboard Top Rock 'N' Roll Hits 1974 (1989),
where it ran 2:55 and (according to the database) ran
at the LP speed. The same analog transfer is used on:
- Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 7
1974 (1990) - digitally identical - Time-
Life's 2-CD Classic Country Vol. 4 1970-1974
(1998) - digitally exactly 1 dB louder - Time-
Life's 2-CD Seventies Music Explosion One-Hit
Wonders (2005) - digitally exactly 2.4 dB
louder
It sounds just fine on all of the
above.
There was a new analog transfer on Rhino's Have A
Nice Day Vol. 13 (1990), which has a slightly
different EQ that tames the brashness of the guitar
solo. I prefer this EQ over the BB disc, but it's not
a huge difference. The speed is pretty much the same
as the BB disc, as is the length of the tail on the
fade. The same analog transfer is used on:-
Rhino's Rock This Town Rockabilly Hits Vol. 2
(1991) - digitally identical - JCI's Only
Country 1970-1974 (1995) - left and right channels
are swapped - Time-Life's AM Gold Vol. 21
1974 (1996) - digitally exactly 0.5 dB louder
- Razor & Tie's 7-CD 70 Number One Hits Of The 70s
Vol. 4 (1998) - digitally identical - Realm's
3-CD Greatest Hits Of The '70s Vol. 1 (2001)
LP version (about 4:00)
I have the LP version on 4 CDs that are all based on a
single mastering. I'd bet that they're all based on
the mastering from Sony Music Special Products' Billy
Swan Best (1990), but I can't confirm. All run
about 0.7% slower than the 45 masterings listed above.
The 4 CDs are:- K-Tel's Seems Like Yesterday
Vol. 2 Mid 70's (1989) - tail of fade just barely
reaches the last note and applause - Sony's
Rock N' 70's (1993) - differently EQ'd digital
clone of Seems Like Yesterday, but (somehow)
extends out to applause and cheer after the last
note - Time-Life's 2-CD Singers And
Songwriters Vol. 3 1974-1975 (1999) - tail of fade
doesn't reach the last note before the applause
- Sony's 5-CD Epic 50th Anniversary Collection
(2003) - digitally exactly 1.5 dB louder than
Singers And Songwriters Vol. 3 1974-1975 but
faded from 2:50 to 3:01; this is the LP mix faded
roughly to match the 45 length; didn't exist in
1974
There's a different analog transfer on
EMI Australia's 5-CD Seventies Complete Vol. 2
(1999), which fades before it reaches the last note.
My recommendations
The sound quality on all of the above discs is pretty
good. Decent source tapes, excellent dynamic range (no
clipping or extra compression/limiting), and no
evidence of noise reduction on any of them.
For the 45 version, go with Rhino's Have A Nice
Day Vol. 13 (1990). It may need some speed
correction to truly match the 45.
For the LP version, go with Sony's Rock N'
70's (1993), which has the longest tail on the
fade of the discs that I have. |
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Funny, I always considered my AM GOLD 1974 disc to have
the best sounding "I Can Help" out of all the discs in
my collection that contained it. Now I know why!
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KentT
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| Posted: 30 June 2020 at 7:43pm | IP Logged
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Hykker wrote:
Apparently, my promo is a "first
pressing" since there's no "reservice" notation on it.
Matrix #s are the same as Jim's.
I didn't realize that CBS-distributed labels issued
"special rush reservice" singles as late as 1974, I
don't think I've ever seen one post-1970.
I do recall seeing some reserviced CBS 45s in special
sleeves with "here's a fresh copy, thanks" printed on
them in the mid-ish 70s.
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I own at least one later "Special Rush Reservice" 45,
Chicago's "Another Rainy Day In New York City". I own
the original promo, and the reservice promo.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Billy Swan-"I Can Help"
