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Paul C
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| Posted: 23 November 2006 at 10:04am | IP Logged
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The version of Bobby Vinton's 'I Love You The Way You Are' found on the only U.S. CD on which it appears (the Greatest Hits CD) is the Epic re-recording. The hit 45 was on the Diamond label and was an old master the label purchased after 'Roses Are Red' took off.
Edited by Paul C on 23 November 2006 at 10:18am
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TomDiehl1
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And you're not likely to ever see the original Diamond label hit reissued on cd, unless the original label the song was purchased/leased from could come up with the original contract signed with Diamond to determine whos got the rights to the song, and locate where the Diamond tapes went to in the last 37 years since the label was first sold.
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Paul C
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| Posted: 25 November 2006 at 3:42pm | IP Logged
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According to Fred Bronson's The Billboard Book Of Number 1 Hits, Pittsburgh DJ Dick Lawrence recorded Vinton singing 'I Love You The Way You Are' and took the demo to CBS, who signed Vinton to Epic (but apparently did not purchase the actual demo). After 'Roses Are Red' became a hit, Lawrence sold the tape to Diamond.
As for the ownership of the Diamond masters, I have a Canadian Stardust CD of Ronnie Dove's Diamond Hits (made from the same mostly lousy-sounding tapes used for the Collectables CDs) which states "For information or bookings contact Diamond Records" and then gives a Virginia address and phone number, which seems to suggest that Ronnie Dove owns Diamond Records.
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Todd Ireland
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Paul, I'm sure Tom will be delighted to read your Ronnie Dove reference as anyone who regularly visits the Both Sides Now message board can tell you he is a huge fan of the artist!
As for Vinton's "I Love the Way You Are", it sadly appears that the only hope we may ever have of seeing the original hit recording on CD would be in the form of a "needle drop" (vinyl dub).
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TomDiehl1
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Vinton recorded for two labels before moving to Epic, Alpine in 1959-1960 (which I believe Alpine was part of the Epic family) and Melody in 1960. I dont know who owned the Melody label but the Vinton 45 ive seen from it had rca matrix numbers on the label, and couldve just been pressing up a custom job.
However i was just reading an interview with Bobby Vinton and he mentioned having recorded all of these demos, but that Dick Lawrence only heard one of them and sent it to Epic, who signed Vinton. It doesn't mention that Lawrence had been the one to record them. But unfortunately that still doesn't get me any closer to finding the current owner of the Diamond master.
As for that Stardust cd, Ronnie doesn't have his own masters. In the 70's he bought (what he thought were) all of his original masters but in the interview i've got where he talks about them, it appears to me as though what he had been given was copies of the lp masters made sometime in the 70s, not the original session tapes and actual masters, and that someone really ripped him off. Someone out there still has them. At any rate, the tapes Ronnie did have are gone, destroyed in a fire reportedly in the 80s.
I dont think Ronnie was ever a direct owner of the label that was once Diamond in the 60s, the copyright had ended on the label name and various people owned the name since then, as recently as 1995 but i doubt they had anything to do with the 60's label (which had nothing to do with the 40's and 50's label of the same name). By the time Ronnie had a resurgance on Diamond in 1988, he had moved back to Maryland by then, and the label was based in Waldorf.
At any rate, Ronnie only got back his own recordings, not other Diamond label artists. And apparently a company in New Jersey called the San Juan Music Group either has, or has access to, unreleased Diamond multitracks, as they licensed a ronnie dove cd that included an unreleased Diamond recording, in 1988. And more recently they licensed all of their recordings to an online company called Digital Musicworks International and on itunes has a bunch of ronnie dove recordings, many from scratchy mono or stereo record dubs, but at least one song, Whats Wrong With My World, appeared on itunes in first time stereo in 2005. Recordings by Diamond artist Ruby Winters also appeared from scratchy mono 45 dubs and some in first time stereo mixes that have some different instrumentation than the 45s, including one side of her only Certron 45, which was the company that the Diamond tapes were sold to in 1969. From there, I can't trace them, and the only person who's name I've seen come up often with regards to the label is Aubrey Mayhew, and he insists that he never owned the tapes and that he has none of them. Recent interviews by him (including mentioning the fact that he "recorded a whole album by Clint Eastwood that is still unreleased" and mentioning that he still has those tapes) and the fact that the Pozo Seco album from Certron and other Certron recordings have recently turned up on cd (albeit i think some are vinyl dubs), makes me think he has more than he is willing to let on, but then he may not have everything and he isn't talking....
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jimct
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I have nothing to add to Tom's great Diamond/Ronnie Dove info, but my Vinton info was that he was originally signed to a 3-album contract by Epic as sort of a mid-20's, "World's Youngest Bandleader Wunderkind" novelty, following in his dad's footsteps, around 1960. My information mentions no link between that Diamond label "from the vaults" 1962 single having anything to do with him initially being signed by Epic. His first 2 LPs, 1961's "Dancing At The Hop" and "Young Man With A Big Band" both flopped badly, as did his 3 Epic 45s released from them, "Posin'/Tornado" (Epic 9417), "Corinna, Corinna/Little Lonely One" (Epic 9440), and "Hip-Swinging, High-Stepping, Drum Majorette/Will I Ask Ya" (Epic 9469). Vinton had just 1 album left on his Epic deal. Desperate, he decided to abandon the Big Band thing and try singing, which he had previously done occasionally, but mainly just for fun, and for a change of pace from his bandleader duties. He then began scouring through demos at the Epic label offices, searching for material to record, and happened upon "Roses Are Red." He then cut it as a vocalist. Early on, not being a label priority, he worked the record himself, buying up all record store copies of the single within an hour or two of his PA home, while having all his family and friends bombard the local radio stations, for weeks on end, with non-stop requests for it. The rest is history. It hit #1, he got a new Epic contract, and he remained with Epic all the way until 1973. Even after being dropped, he still gave Epic first crack at releasing "My Melody Of Love" a year later - they passed, and ABC ended up having the hit with it. But he never forgot, and remains very proud, of his early bandleader work for Epic. Around '61-'62, his orchestra had accompanied several other second-tier Epic recording artists. They always had to record at off-peak-hours, often got to know each other well as a result, and were usually more than happy to help each other try to score that breakthrough hit, be it through providing background vocals, an arrangement, etc. One such artist was Buddy Greco, who had the 1962 national midcharter, "Mr. Lonely." In '64, still searching for new material, Bobby decided to do his own vocal version of it. But he remembered thinking that his now-defunct big band had done an exceptionally strong job backing Greco on that now-2-year-old track. So, for his version, he simply wiped Greco's vocals off, kept all the original music, done by his guys, and simply added his vocals. It, too, hit #1. Hearing the Greco version today is strange, but not nearly as weird as hearing that same 40+ year old music sampled on a recent hit release, of which title/artist I don't know!
Edited by jimct on 26 November 2006 at 11:37am
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aaronk
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| Posted: 26 November 2006 at 2:24pm | IP Logged
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jimct wrote:
| Hearing the Greco version today is strange, but not nearly as weird as hearing that same 40+ year old music sampled on a recent hit release, of which title/artist I don't know! |
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That would be Akon's "Lonely," which we have been playing at Radio Disney more than 50 times a week since its release. I blame both Bobby and Greco for my torment.
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jimct
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| Posted: 26 November 2006 at 9:05pm | IP Logged
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Aaron: Thanks, buddy! My low-gigabyte memory is now 100% full with tons of useless 1955-99 hit song info - you and several other sharp young whippersnappers on this Board are who us grey-haired guys are depending on to detail-document the 00s and beyond, so consider the torch passed - I'm too damn busy just tryin' NOT to forget what I already know! :)
Edited by jimct on 26 November 2006 at 9:06pm
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TomDiehl1
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jimct wrote:
| One such artist was Buddy Greco, who had the 1962 national midcharter, "Mr. Lonely." In '64, still searching for new material, Bobby decided to do his own vocal version of it. But he remembered thinking that his now-defunct big band had done an exceptionally strong job backing Greco on that now-2-year-old track. So, for his version, he simply wiped Greco's vocals off, kept all the original music, done by his guys, and simply added his vocals. |
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I've compared the two versions, and there is no way that they share the same backing track. Not only is there different instrumentation (the piano, for one), but they are in different keys. I think it could be possible that maybe Vinton's version used the backing track from a different take of Greco's version but it seems a little unlikely that Epic would've kept the entire session tape around for Greco's version. I also believe the 45s credited a different arranger for each version....
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jimct
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| Posted: 26 November 2006 at 11:38pm | IP Logged
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Tom: I obtained that particular piece of information from directly under the Buddy Greco "Mr. Lonely" entry in Joel Whitburn's "Billboard Top Pop Singles 1955-1999" book. While no one is perfect, I have found Joel's notations, generally speaking, to be a VERY accurate and reliable reference source over the years. If the music tracks aren't exactly the same, as you allege, and which could in fact be true (I'm no minor-key expert), they are VERY close; close enough where a casual listen could conclude that they are, in fact, the same. You may want to let Paul Haney, or Mr. Whitburn know of your disagreement with the book's findings, so they can at least doublecheck/amend what's currently shown for it. I heard Bobby doing a live interview on a Long Island radio station, approx. 4 years ago; that's where I heard him mention his own band's involvement with "Mr. Lonely." I was a little doubtful of its correctness initially, simply because his was a "Big Band" style outfit, whereas the Greco/Vinton 45 background was a slow, more standard string-laden sound. But I'm quite sure Vinton's band of pros could've easily pulled off that rather basic arrangement, making his on-air statement plausible. The station interviewer actually brought up Greco's version of the song to Bobby, which showed fairly impressive knowledge of Vinton's career. I'm sure that isn't a topic Bobby has fielded much, as a "standard" question, over the years - sounds like he had no standard answer for it. Tom, I have both of the original Epic 45s, and have just pulled them out to check the "small-print" details. Both 45s, in fact, reference Epic's #1 "go-to" arranger/conductor of the day, Robert Mersey, as the arranger/conductor of both "Mr. Lonely" 45s. Shame on me for trusting Bobby's memory on that - maybe he was just trying to give his old buddies a pop, who knows. But he DID say it, clear as day, and he was, obviously, in a position to know. But the issue of "Is it the same backing track?" persists, especially with Mersey label-credited on both. I'd be happy to provide mp3s of both 45s to any trained ear who's interested enough to make an accurate determination. Tom, I see your posts frequently on the BSN board. You are a sharp guy, and I hold your statements in high regard. I, too, am a fanatic for accurate detail and documentation, and carefully scrutinize ALL my fact sources for credibility/accuracy. I will simply not offer up speculation or guesses - I'm interested in facts.
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Paul C
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| Posted: 27 November 2006 at 7:21am | IP Logged
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Fred Bronson's The Billboard Book of Number 1 Hits (which I'll acknowledge is at times more entertaining than accurate) claims that Vinton recorded 'Mr. Lonely' in 1962 at the same session that produced 'Roses Are Red'. (If Bronson's account is correct, then Vinton recorded the song first.) Bronson quotes Vinton as saying, "I'm driving in my car one day listening to the radio, and I hear 'Mr. Lonely' the way I wrote it and arranged it, but it wasn't my voice, it was his. So I called Epic Records and said , 'That's my song, it should be the follow-up to 'Roses Are Red'. And they said, 'Come on, you're not really a singer and he is. You're hot now, but this song could kick off a new artist.'" (Curiously, Bronson never mentions Greco by name, saying only "'Mr. Lonely' was not a hit for this unnamed artist." Greco was also not a 'new artist', as he had been recording for at least 15 years. I have the 78 of his only Top 40 hit, 1951's 'I Ran All The Way Home'.)
When Vinton needed one more song for his Greatest Hits album (he had 11 and needed one more), he chose 'Mr. Lonely', which then started getting airplay which forced its release as a single. What Bronson doesn't say is whether Vinton re-recorded the song for Greatest Hits or whether the original 1962 recording was used.
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jimct
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Paul: Thanks for the additional info - some of it checks out. Vinton is, in fact, the "Mr. Lonely" co-writer (with someone named G. Allen), and it does in fact appear on his "Roses Are Red" LP, which debuted on Billboard on 8-4-62. The Greco 45 debuted on Billboard 7 weeks later, on 9-22-62, so it is logical that Vinton's version quite possibly existed first, especially since he co-wrote it. Bronson quotes Vinton as saying, "I heard Mr. Lonely on the radio the way I wrote and arranged it." That jives with statements Vinton also made during that live interview I heard. Why, then, is Robert Mersey listed as the arranger on both of the "Mr. Lonely" 45s? But, at least this close timeframe certainly makes it more reasonable that the session music track tapes were indeed available to be accessed for both the Vinton & Greco recordings, as opposed to a 2-year, '62-to-'64 gap. On Vinton's "Mr. Lonely" 45, it does clearly state that the song is included on the "Bobby Vinton's Greatest Hits" album. Both this LP and his 45 initially charted in October 1964. To address another point you make, Paul, not having the 1962 "Roses Are Red" LP, I cannot confirm whether or not that exact "Mr. Lonely" version again appeared on the Hits LP/45 release, or if it was re-recorded/remixed for 1964 inclusion. That Epic still didn't truly think of Vinton as a singer, even after "Roses Are Red" hit #1, is 100% consistent with the reference information I have. It appears Bronson was pretty accurate in this case. Thanks, Paul - you really helped to fill in some gaps. Man, this turned out to be a tough one to try to get to the bottom of!
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jimct
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| Posted: 29 December 2008 at 11:34pm | IP Logged
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Todd Ireland wrote:
| As for Vinton's "I Love the Way You Are", it sadly appears that the only hope we may ever have of seeing the original hit recording on CD would be in the form of a "needle drop" (vinyl dub). |
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Todd, my commercial 45, confirmed as Diamond 121, has a listed time of (2:34), but an actual time of (2:48). I have just carefully listened to both my original 45, and the mono CD version I have just picked up on the import "The Golden Age Of American Popular Music, Volume 2" (Ace UK CDCHD 1191). This CD version also clocks in at exactly (2:48), and to my ears the two sources feature the exact same recording. Perhaps the Diamond 45 master was sold/released/archived by a UK major label in 1962, as was so often the case during these years. And, not surprisingly, the sound of the song on this CD is a million times better than what's found on my 45, so it looks like good news here, Todd!
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TomDiehl1
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Indeed there was a UK Stateside (Or maybe they were still using Top Rank at the time) pressing of the 45, the master of which was a direct copy of Diamond's master, so that was what was used for the ACE cd. Ditto goes for Ronnie Dove's Right Or Wrong on the same cd.
P.S. While they were able to access the tape in the UK vault while researching other tunes, the song itself was licensed from Bobby Vinton directly, rather than through some record company.
Edited by TomDiehl1 on 30 December 2008 at 10:41am
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Topic: I Love You The Way You Are - Bobby Vinton
