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satchdr
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| Posted: 03 October 2009 at 10:49am | IP Logged
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I noticed that this cut is not in the database even though it peaked at #37 on the Hot 100 in 1969. It was the B-side of "Walk On By" but still charted as that was while Billboard's system allowed B-sides to chart separately from A-sides.
I don't think I've ever heard the 45 version, which apparently runs 6:45 (according to Whitburn.) The only version I have is the stereo LP version from the "Hot Buttered Soul" album that runs 18:41.
Just thought I'd bring its omission to Pat's attention.
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jimct
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| Posted: 03 October 2009 at 1:38pm | IP Logged
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Satch, while those of us who collect the Billboard Top 40 hits may look at this song as being an "omission", by Pat's unique database criteria, he didn't overlook it; it just didn't "qualify" for his database. It was not a "Consensus Top 40 hit, using the trade magazines of the day." Pat would be the first one to point out, as he has often done in the past, that this song only peaked at #59 on Cashbox. Therefore, the #37 Billboard peak & the #59 Cashbox peak, averaged out, makes it an "overall" #48 hit, outside "his" Top 40. This is why it isn't in Pat's db, not due to an oversight. He is also of the very strong opinion (as are about 10% of all the collectors I know) that Cashbox was much more accurate than Billboard. He's repeatedly stated his feelings that he feels Billboard's chart positions could be "bought", and doesn't understand why most of us still consider Billboard "The Holy Grail".
Edited by jimct on 03 October 2009 at 1:44pm
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Pat Downey
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| Posted: 03 October 2009 at 3:22pm | IP Logged
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Now wait a minute Jim, I do not feel that Cash Box was a more reliable and accurate chart than the Billboard chart. All charts in the old days were subject to chart positions being purchased not just Billboard. I have actually read an article that interviewed a Cash Box chart editor (country charts as I recall) where he admitted that Cash Box chart positions were bought. This "purchase" often took the form of a purchase of advertising space in a publication so that it could be technically concealed.
Even if we disregard the fact that chart positions may have been bought, the chart methodologies of the various trade publications varied from time to time such that one publication may have been more sales oriented and another more airplay oriented so who is to say that one was a more accurate "real" representation of the gauge of the true popularity of a song? I still feel that averaging chart positions is the best way to obtain a concensus top 40 database.
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jimct
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| Posted: 03 October 2009 at 5:17pm | IP Logged
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Pat, forgive me; I stand corrected. But I can never remember you ever previously saying anything derogatory towards Cashbox chart methodology here on the Board before, so your new statement above does truthfully come as a bit of a shock to me. From my years reading the Board, I was defintely under the impression that you had much more faith in Cashbox's methodology back in the day, simply based on multiple previous comments you'd directed towards Billboard. I very much appreciate you setting me straight on your actual opinion on this subject.
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Hykker
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| Posted: 03 October 2009 at 5:54pm | IP Logged
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Was Cashbox strictly a sales chart? I don't ever recall any radio stations reporting to them. What was their criteria for reporting status? As we all know, sales figures in pre-Soundscan times were subject to as much "creative interpretation" as were airplay stats. Also, a song that may have sold well in smaller markets where the record stores weren't reporters may have been short-changed and/or records with more urban appeal may tilt the scale the other way. Unlike airplay, where bigger stations=larger audience, a sale is a sale.
I don't know which charts were the most accurate, but even as a teenager I considered Billboard to be "the Bible", as did most other music fans I knew.
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 03 October 2009 at 7:19pm | IP Logged
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Hykker wrote:
Was Cashbox strictly a sales chart? I don't ever recall any radio stations reporting to them.
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In 1969 it was still strictly a sales chart, I'm quite sure. We know for a fact that it was until at least early 1968, because until then each chart carried a fine-print notation that it was based on sales reports and did not include airplay.
At exactly what point they started including airplay I have not been able to find out. However, the December 1974 year-end chart was the first one that did NOT refer to it as "The Cash Box Top 100 Bestselling Singles," even though "Bestselling" had been dropped from the title of the chart in 1962.
So that is evidence, however inconclusive, that Cash Box did not begin incorporating airplay into their Top 100 until sometime in 1974.
Edited by Brian W. on 03 October 2009 at 7:21pm
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aaronk
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| Posted: 04 October 2009 at 7:00pm | IP Logged
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Hykker wrote:
| Unlike airplay, where bigger stations=larger audience, a sale is a sale. |
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Point taken; however, one of the major driving forces behind record sales was, and still is, airplay. So I've always favored charts that included both airplay and sales figures.
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