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eriejwg
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| Posted: 27 December 2009 at 8:49pm | IP Logged
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Are "Devil Woman" and "We Don't Talk Anymore" merely edits of the LP versions or different mixes?
**EDIT** - To answer my own question, "Devil Woman" has an edit on the intro and an earlier fade.
"We Don't Talk Anymore" - edit towards the end and earlier fade.
Edited by eriejwg on 27 December 2009 at 9:50pm
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sriv94
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| Posted: 27 December 2009 at 9:12pm | IP Logged
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I had thought they were just edits--I'm not aware of any mix differences. Do you suspect something?
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 27 December 2009 at 9:37pm | IP Logged
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I know that the US 45 of "We Don't Talk Anymore" is just an
edit of the album version - it was one of the first 45
edits I recreated over 10 years ago. I can retrace my
steps if you want to know the edit points.
I also have a foreign pressing of the 45, which is not the
same as the US 45 - I think it's the album version, but I'd
have to check.
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AndrewChouffi
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| Posted: 28 December 2009 at 8:19am | IP Logged
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Yes, I would like to know what the edit points are; as I recall there was a weird out-of-sequence edit.
Andy
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 29 December 2009 at 4:04pm | IP Logged
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First, the album version:
The album version turns up on the Canadian 45: "We Don't Talk Anymore" (printed and actual 4:12) b/w "Rock And Roll Juvenile" (printed 2:46), Harvest 72814, released 1979. Yellow label, green concentric design just like US Harvest 45s. The Canadian 45 also misspells Alan Tarney's name as "Allen".
The most common place on CD to find the album version is probably Madacy's Rock On 1979 (1996), where it also runs 4:12. (The version on Rock On 1979 is digitally exactly 0.7 dB quieter than the CD Razor and Tie 1995 Sampler No. 4, which is most likely a digital clone of the prohibitively expensive Cliff Richard Collection (1976-1994). Sound is great on all of these.)
The Canadian 45 and CD versions track exactly - same face points, exactly the same tempo (111.7 BPM throughout - recorded with a click track).
The US 45 is "We Don't Tak Anymore" (printed 3:40 actual 3:39) b/w "Count Me Out" (printed 4:13), green-label EMI America 8025, released 1979. No misspellings.
This runs about 0.2% faster, at 111.9 BPM throughout. An insignificant difference.
To recreate the 45 version (using the timings from Rock On 1979):
Keep 0:00-3:27.4.
Edit on the downbeat, which follows 16 beats after the little break.
Remove the 48 beats from 3:27.4-3:53.2. This includes removing the second little break.
Keep 3:53.2 (the first beat following the second little break) to 4:16.3, inserting a 24-beat fade from 3:53 to about 4:06. The fade is around ten seconds shorter on the 45.
Your mixdown will run 3:50 (if you don't accelerate the fade) or 3:40 (if you do accelerate the fade), with a single edit at 3:27.4.
Note that the 50-CD promo set The A-List correctly reproduces this edit.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 29 December 2009 at 4:07pm
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sriv94
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| Posted: 29 December 2009 at 7:01pm | IP Logged
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I'm wondering--was there a promo 45 for "We Don't Talk Anymore" that featured the LP version just faded out earlier to the (3:40) mark?
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 29 December 2009 at 9:11pm | IP Logged
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Doug, I have two "We Don't Talk Anymore" DJ 45s that are identical:
--Stereo/stereo, both sides listed as (3:40), actual time is (3:41.5)
--Matrix numbers are identical on both sides: SPRO-9243(500176A)G2 (or that might be "50017GA" instead of a "6".)
Although I don't have a stock copy to compare it with, the DJ 45 also has the edit mentioned above, but it plays a tad slower than the vinyl LP version. I can't imagine that the commercial 45s had an SPRO- matrix number in the dead wax. Can someone post theirs?
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davidclark
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| Posted: 18 October 2015 at 9:27pm | IP Logged
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Came across this website http://www.cliffrichardsongs.com/devilwoman/.
In particular to "Devil Woman", it mentions that the US 45 was mixed different
from its parent LP "I'm Nearly Famous".
They include a sample of both, but my ears are detecting a very slight
difference.
Anyone care to listen and chime in?
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Bwci Bo
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Interesting discovery, davidclark. It says the US single mix was also used on the 2001 master of 'I'm Nearly Famous', which I own. I'd always thought 'Devil Woman' sounded slightly different on this disc but I assumed it was just a result of remastering and perhaps some EQ tweaks. Nice to know that I have this mix, even if I didn't realise it til now.
Funny thing is, I didn't even buy the CD for 'Devil Woman'. I bought it because it contained several non LP singles as bonus tracks, specifically 'It's Only Me You Left Behind' which is probably one of my favourite Cliff singles.
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 19 October 2015 at 8:22pm | IP Logged
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According to that website the single mix has been
issued on several CDs, and all CDs since 2000:
Quote:
"USA Single Mix: On the strength of the
material for I'm Nearly Famous, particularly Devil
Woman and Miss You Nights, Cliff was signed to the
Rocket Record Company in the USA. A decision was made
to slightly remaster the song Devil Woman, giving the
song more punch with a stronger bass and drum. It was
this mix that was used on the USA single, while the
album had the standard worldwide single/album mix. A
comparison of these mixes can be heard HERE. The first
part heard is the original album version, followed by
the USA single mix (both the intro and the fade are
heard).
Years later, this mix appeared on the 1989 CD issue of
40 Golden Greats. Why was this mix used for this
compilation? It remains a mystery why, but when this
1989 CD compilation was prepared of the original 1978
LP compilation, it is clear that the compilers chose
to recompile the tracks and not use the original
masters prepared for the LP. Where the LP had several
mock stereo versions of the early songs that were
recorded only in mono, the CD reverted to the original
mono versions as mock stereo was no longer in fashion
by the late 1980s. It is assumed the that compilers
went looking for what they thought was the best master
of Devil Woman and inadvertantly picked up the USA
single mix.
This USA single mix next appeared on the 1998
compilation simply called 1970s. (Several decade-
themed compilations were released in 1998). As 1998
was Cliff's 40th anniversary in show business, his
catalog had undergone a major overhaul under engineer
Keith Bessey. The idea was to remaster the best
versions of Cliff's hit songs and use them for all
releases from then on. The only 40th anniversary
compilation with Devil Woman was the 1970s set and
once again, the USA single mix was picked for it. This
mix, next appearing on 2000's The Whole Story - His
Greatest Hits compilation, has been used on all
releases since then, completely replacing the original
album mix. The USA single mix was even used on the
2001 remaster of the I'm Nearly Famous album."
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sriv94
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| Posted: 19 October 2015 at 8:38pm | IP Logged
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I'm even more confused. The 45 of "Devil Woman" is most definitely an edit. So does that mean that all of the LP versions on CD should be "neither?"
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 19 October 2015 at 9:35pm | IP Logged
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sriv94 wrote:
I'm even more confused. The 45 of
"Devil Woman" is most definitely an edit. So does
that mean that all of the LP versions on CD should be
"neither?" |
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No, because he claims that this remix was never used
on the album.
Yet I'm not 100% convinced that the writer of that
blurb knows what he's talking about. I'm not hearing
that much of a difference in the samples he posted;
not enough that it couldn't be due to EQ differences.
And if there is a mix difference, these CDs he's
referencing contain an LP-length version of that
single mix, not the single edit. (Which would not be
impossible... a few songs have been issued on CD in
LP-length versions of their single mixes, such as
Barry Manilow "It's a Miracle.")
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Bwci Bo
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| Posted: 19 October 2015 at 10:11pm | IP Logged
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To be fair, the author of that website does state that it's the single mix appearing on those CDs, as opposed to the single version. Presumably they created this new mix using the original LP version (which is also the 45 version outside of the US) and the result was the version found on the 2001 'I'm Nearly Famous' and a bunch of other CDs. This mix was obviously what was used for the US 45, but they decided to remove the first 8 seconds from the introduction and fade the ending a little earlier. I think the vinyl 45 may also run a little faster?
It would still be fair to say that no CDs in the database contain the US 45 version. The entries which state LP version would need to be checked to see if they contain the original mix or the punchier single mix. And if they contain the latter, maybe they could be annotated with LP version but 45 mix or something to that effect?
Edited by Bwci Bo on 19 October 2015 at 10:14pm
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 20 October 2015 at 2:16pm | IP Logged
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Robert Porter's analysis of "Devil Woman" was quite a fascinating read! What I did find interesting about the epic entry was that although he frequently brings up the shortened fade on the US 45, he never says so much as a word about the US 45's intro having been edited. Witness the one mention that does include the word "edited":
Devil Woman (Edited Remix Version)
Running Time: 3:35
Released On:
Devil Woman 7" single (1976 May — USA — Rocket Record Company PIG-40574) (and others)
The US Rocket 45 states a time of 3:21 and plays an actual 3:22, not the 3:35 cited above. That an analysis as highly detailed as Mr. Porter's would nevertheless neglect to mention the US 45's shortened intro in at least the above listing seems a rather glaring omission.
Then there's this, near the bottom of the entry:
In the USA, it was decided that Devil Woman was a good single, but it needed a little more punch. So it was remastered, giving the bass and drums more kick. In addition, the song's fade out was changed to slightly earlier, cutting the last two lines of the fifth chorus-- it's assumed that this earlier fade was inadvertant and done by an engineer who was a little too fast on the knob.
No disrespect to Mr. Porter for making an assumption, but there's never anything "inadvertent" when it comes to earlier fades on US 45s to keep them even a bit more decidedly under the critical 3:30 maximum timing benchmark set by more than a few radio programmers at the time. And no, I'm not about to touch that line about an engineer being "a little too fast on the knob." ;)
So how do the American vinyl releases compare? All of the following are U.S. releases on the Rocket label:
1. LP track from a promo-stickered copy of the I'm Nearly Famous LP (Rocket 2210) in its original cover, showing Cliff with pen and pad in hand. MCA Pinckneyville pressing; deadwax is "MCA-1023 W-2".
2. LP track from a promo-stickered copy of the I'm Nearly Famous LP (Rocket 2210) in the quickly-revised cover with the green border, a photo of Cliff and an "includes" blurb mentioning three songs. Pinckneyville pressing; deadwax is the same as the above copy: "MCA-1023 W-2".
3. DJ 45 (Rocket 40574) on the all-burgundy label, with the <o>-P-<o> Pinckneyville deadwax logo. Stampers on both sides of the stereo/stereo promo were sourced from the same lacquer and bear identical deadwax writing, with the second "5" of the MC5259EW2 being overwritten, due to an incorrect "4" having been initially inscribed in the same spot. The songwriting is credited to "Christine Hodgson-Terry Britten" and the publishing to "Chappell & Co., Inc. (ASCAP)".
4. Stock 45 (Rocket 40574) on the standard green-and-blue Rocket label, with the machine-stamped [o]-G-[o] MCA Gloversville deadwax logo and a hand-etched <>-P-<> Pinckneyville logo on the A side, along with the normal, machine-stamped <o>-P-<o> Pinckneyville deadwax logo on the B side, "Love On (Shine On)". Deadwax reads "MC 5259E W1".
I do have two other stock 45s that match this one, except that the A sides have no Gloversville deadwax symbol and both sides have the machine-stamped <o>-P-<o> Pinckneyville deadwax logo, with a much smaller deadwax inscription of "MC5259EW3". The A-side songwriting credit goes to "Kristine Authors-Terry Britten" and publishing to "Unichappell Music, Inc. (BMI)" on all three stock 45s.
Analysis:
A. Both LP tracks (#1 and #2) are identical. Listed times are 3:26 and actual times are 3:28.
B. Both the #3 DJ and #4 stock 45s are identical (3:21 listed, 3:22.7 actual.)
C. After removing the opening 8.5 seconds of the LP track, the US 45 actually runs slower than the US LP track, by a difference of approximately 1 second at the point where the 45 fade ends.
D. I agree with Brian that it's hard to tell much difference between the LP and US 45 versions, based on the sample comparison provided by Robert Porter. After scrutinizing my own vinyl, I found that there is an audible, yet not overly-obvious difference between the US LP and 45 mixes. Mr. Porter was correct in saying that the bass and drums are mixed hotter on the US 45. While it's possible that might simply be due to some judicious EQing, to my ears, it does sound like those two elements were brought slightly more forward on the American single. It's enough to make some of the other instruments during the intro seem a little less apparent without actually pushing them back in the mix. The added bass and drum presence may have seemed like nothing more than a little extra pixie dust, but that was the "je ne sais quoi" about it that made the record sound even bigger and more devilish on the radio.
Edited by Yah Shure on 20 October 2015 at 2:26pm
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 20 October 2015 at 2:42pm | IP Logged
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I spent about half an hour comparing the two versions last
night, and I'm really not convinced that they are different
mixes at all. When I EQ the version from "Sounds of the
Seventies: '70s Dance Party 1975-1976" to match the EQ of
the alleged remix, then switch back and forth between them
throughout the song, I don't hear ANYTHING that would make
me think this was a different mix.
It sounds to me like the extra punchiness is simply
brighter EQ with a little more bottom end. All elements
seem to be in the identical place in the stereo spectrum
and seem to be at the same volume level in both versions.
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Bwci Bo
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John, thanks for the in-depth analysis of this track. Like you, I also believe that the US 45 is a different mix, albeit a very subtle one. However, I am basing my conclusion on my ears alone, as I have not conducted any spectra or waveform comparisons as Brian has.
Therefore, it looks like the jury is still out on this one.
Oh, and John, your sense of humour in some of your posts appeals to me!
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crapfromthepast
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Did you know that "Devil Woman" is a remake? It was originally released in 1975 by Kristine Sparkle, who co-wrote it (under her real name of Christine Hodgson) with Terry Britten ("What's Love Got To Do With It"). Cliff Richard covered it a year later in 1976, and changed the narrator from third person to first person in the lyrics. Still a great record, and one that still gets occasional spins on classic rock KQRS/Minneapolis as of 2016.
The US 45 runs 3:21. During the chorus, there's a shaky instrument in the right channel. The US 45 doesn't appear on CD anywhere.
Fortunately, the 45 can easily be edited from the versions that are available on CD. I compared the CD versions to two different needledrops (credited to GenesOldies and Mr.M), and I can confirm that they're the same mix.
(They sound the same, with some EQ differences. Plus, if you visually compare the waveforms, the 45 and CD versions have features that look the same. If there were mix differences, like additional reverb on the drums, or a volume increase for the drums, you'd be able to see those mix differences in the waveform. Visual comparison doesn't help you much for excessively compressed/limited tracks, but this 1976 track has terrific dynamic range on the 45 and on CD.)
I'm not 100% sure what to call the versions on CD, since I don't know what was on the 1976 I'm Nearly Famous vinyl LP. With that caveat, I'll just refer to them as "LP version".
As of 2016, the song has appeared on exactly five CDs in the US, and I happen to have all five of them. All five have nice dynamic range (no excessive compression/limiting), nice EQ, and no evidence of noise reduction.
The oldest is Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 22 Seventies Top Forty (1992), which has its left and right channels swapped. On top of that, the source tapes aren't the greatest.
The next is Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 20 (1993), which has the correct left/right channels, but uses source tapes that are even worse than the Time-Life disc. The song sounds completely lifeless, with all the ambiance sucked out of it. It sounds like when you accidentally turned on the Dolby B noise reduction on your cassette deck, but the cassette didn't use noise reduction at all. And I can tell that it's on the source tapes, and not added by Rhino - you can hear a nice tape hiss on the fade. Avoid "Devil Woman" on Have A Nice Day Vol. 20 at all costs.
Next is Razor & Tie's Collection 1970-1994 (1994). As much as I've maligned some Steve Hoffman masterings for other discs, "Devil Woman" sounds amazing here. Listen to the opening thump of the bass drum. On the other CDs listed here, the bass drum is just a thud. On this disc, you can hear some of the higher harmonics on the tail end of each thump. That's what a real bass drum sounds like. Outstanding, and significantly better than any of the other discs here.
Finally, Time-Life's 2-CD Seventies Music Explosion Vol. 4 Magic (2005) is digitally exactly 0.9 dB louder than Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 22 Seventies Top Forty (1992), and has the same issues as that disc (left and right channels swapped, source tapes not the greatest). There's a box set version of this disc with the same mastering.
My recommendation for the LP version (or whatever this version is): Razor & Tie's Collection 1970-1994 (1994).
Finally, editing instructions for creating the US 45 version from Collection 1970-1994:
Remove the first 16 beats from 0:00.0 to 0:09.7 of the LP version on Collection 1970-1994.
Segment 1
Begins and ends on a downbeat
Extends from 0:00.0 to 3:21.0 of the US 45 edit
Extends from 0:09.7 to 3:30.7 of the LP version on Collection 1970-1994
Fade
24 beats long
Begins and ends on a downbeat
Extends from 3:08.8 to 3:21.0 of the US 45 edit
Extends from 3:18.5 to 3:30.7 of the LP version on Collection 1970-1994
I did find an insignificant speed difference of about 0.2% between the CD and the vinyl 45, amounting to about 0.5 seconds over the course of the whole song. You can safely ignore the speed difference.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 19 September 2016 at 6:54am
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Santi Paradoa
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A minor correction: The Razor & Tie Collection on CD has a
typo in this thread as well as in the online database. It's
supposed to be 1976-1994 (not 1970-1994). This might help
collectors looking for the correct CD.
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Jack45
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Pat:
I noticed you made the title correction, but if you look carefully, the years use a fancy typeface that makes a six look almost like a zero. I checked the images in Discogs to confirm.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 12 August 2023 at 8:45pm | IP Logged
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Edit: The following is incorrect.
Years later at this point...
I did an A/B comparison between the LP version and the 45.
The 45 does indeed have the bass and drums mixed slightly louder than the LP. The placement of the instruments in the soundstage seems about the same for both. The reverb seems about the same for both. There isn't any glaring difference that would identify one vs. the other, unfortunately.
So... please disregard the editing instructions above. The 45 is a different mix, so you can't just edit off the intro of the LP mix and fade early.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 14 August 2023 at 7:58pm
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Cliff Richard-Devil Woman / We Don’t Talk
