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jimct
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| Posted: 22 April 2010 at 1:07pm | IP Logged
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My commercial 45, confirmed as London 901, has a listed time of (3:19), but an actual time of (3:24). My 45 is styrene, with deadwax of "DR 38032-BW". Pat's current database notations seem to infer a 45 run time of (3:21) - perahps he owns a different commercial 45 pressing than mine.
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edtop40
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| Posted: 28 April 2013 at 7:08pm | IP Logged
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my commercial 45 is on blue swirl label with a listed run
time of 3:19, but mine actually runs 3:21....my run out
groove info is 'DR38032-1J'......then further around the
groove it has a triangle shape then '61543'....if you fade
out the 'singles' cd box set version for 0:13 from 3:08 to
3:21, you can effectively re-create the vinyl 45
version.....maybe mine and pat's 45 are the same and jim
has a different issue....jim, could you re-time your 45
when time permits....jim are you by chance counting the
bleed through that runs about 0:02 on the 45 before the
song starts?
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aaronk
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| Posted: 28 April 2013 at 7:54pm | IP Logged
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Ed, since yours has different deadwax than Jim's, I'm betting that both of you have properly timed your 45s. They are simply different pressings with slightly different run times.
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jimct
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| Posted: 28 April 2013 at 8:04pm | IP Logged
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Ed, as far as me possibly counting "first note bleed through" in my
timings, the answer is absolutely not, old buddy! (You weren't really
serious with that question, were you?) Our 45 deadwax info, for both "As
Tears Go By" and "Paint It, Black" is clearly different. And, as Pat's recent
"Bobby's Girl" examination has again just revealed, actual 45 time
differences of :03 seconds or less are extremely common, due to press
run variations. That's why Pat has always requested that we *not* report
differences of :02 or less to him, on his Board. I never have. But I've long
noticed that you continue to report your one or two second listed/actual
time differences, anyway.
I just figured that, by now, Pat's given up on mentioning it to you
anymore, since we all know you're just our "lovable, nutty, timing
professor!" :)
(And thanks for your kind reply while I was typing, Aaron!)
Edited by jimct on 28 April 2013 at 8:06pm
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MMathews
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| Posted: 29 April 2013 at 1:40am | IP Logged
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Jim, i too am learning how common this was.
I can verify too that i've been running into slight timimg and pitch differences on original pressings .. small variances were apparently commonplace between different pressing locations.
Besides Bobby's Girl and possibly this one,
i've compared several "original pressings" from different owners where the pitch difference can change the time as much as 1-2 seconds...as well as slightly different fade cut-off points.
I try to get pitch and time exact for example, if we are working on a cd release, using a pressing matching what charted.
But then after comparing several of same label and number, i have to tell Bill "uh, well, i got 3 reference dubs and they all are at different speeds...draw straws, take an average...what's your pleasure?"
At times the decision is to "use whatever was on the promo, if possible"....theory being its the earliest reference.
MM
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edtop40
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| Posted: 29 April 2013 at 9:48am | IP Logged
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I didn’t mean to insult your integrity with regard to the bleed through question, Jim, I apologize. You have probably forgotten more in your life than I will ever know regarding top 40 music and the radio business.
Since most of my A/B analysis and reviewing of songs in the past has been of the newer variety, 70's, 80's & 90's, I was not aware of the great number of anomalies, although slight by others standards, of vinyl 45’s from the 50’s and 60’s. I didn’t realize that the issuance of 45’s during this period was so haphazard and inconsistent with regard to content and quality control. It’s not my intent to be overbearing in my review of these 45's, but in the future I will need to be more acute to the concerns of some on the board and will be more selective in what I post with regard to these irregularities. I hope those, in the past, who have welcomed this detailed analysis will understand.
Edtop40
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aaronk
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| Posted: 29 April 2013 at 10:39am | IP Logged
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Ed, I hope you continue to post run time and deadwax information on your pressings. Even if they are slight and Pat chooses not to include :02 differences, it's nice to be able to reference them here.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 29 April 2013 at 12:14pm | IP Logged
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I like the fact that Ed's (or anybody else's) timing postings often spark or rekindle further discussion, leading to findings that may not even be related to the actual timings. The knowledge shared through these exchanges is what makes this place unique.
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jimct
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| Posted: 29 April 2013 at 12:35pm | IP Logged
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It's all good, Ed! We're both longtime "Downey Board Teammates," and, for
both as long and as deeply as both of us have been into 45s, guys like Mark
Mathews, you and I are all *still* learning new particulars about 50-year-
old+ 45s. Incredible. (And Mark, I absolutely *love* your suggestion about
using the promo 45's timings as the "definitive" time, when several
commercial pressings existed.) I mean, Yah Shure alone has increased my
knowledge of "pressing plant particulars" 1000-fold. That whole subject is
just so interesting to me! And also how some reprint 45s look 99% like the
originals did! I also agree with Yah Shure's last point, about one of your
"added detail" posts rekindling further song discussions. So Ed, if it ain't
broke, don't fix it, I say! :)
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 29 April 2013 at 8:31pm | IP Logged
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jimct wrote:
| It's all good, Ed! We're both longtime "Downey Board Teammates" |
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Are you sure about that, Jim? ESPN is reporting that you've been traded to BSN for a first round draft beer pick and a 25-count box of Head East's "Never Been Any Reason" DJ 45s (A&M 1718, vinyl Columbia Santa Maria pressing, deadwax A&M 11834 (STEREO) -S2.) ;)
Thanks for the kind words, although there are others who know far more about this stuff than I do. You're absolutely right about how fascinating it all can be. I'd seen differences between pressings within the singles bins even as a kid, but it was in my college radio days when I began to notice that the postmarks of the DJ 45 packages were seldom the same as the city of the labels' home offices. Working in the distribution end of the business was a great education in learning exactly where the records were made.
College radio was also when I noticed that the Atlantic DJ 45s that came in the mail had different color schemes on the stereo labels than the ones obtained from the local WEA branch office. And no wonder: the regionally-contracted plants such as Specialty, Monarch and Plastic Products (and PRC, after PP closed) all pressed Atlantic DJ 45s in addition to stock copies. So much for making the DJ 45 the de facto 45! :) Fortunately, the Atlantic lacquers were all cut in New York back then, rather than at each manufacturing plant.
And I'm not going to even mention Columbia. :)
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NightAire
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| Posted: 21 September 2021 at 9:13pm | IP Logged
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I've noticed some of the versions are mono (I assume the original single mix) and some are stereo:
Aftermath: mono
Grrr!: stereo
Hot Rocks 1964-1971: stereo
Through The Past Darkly (Big Hits 2): stereo on two versions, mono on a third
I also have a couple of two-track CD singles that both have it in mono.
I'm curious if the single was only issued in mono, and if the stereo mix was done at the same time. It reminds me of some of those two track recordings that were later "remastered" in stereo with the drums all in one channel, etc. I also thought of some of the early "throwaway" Beatles stereo recordings that was done just because stereo would sell while the mono mix had blood, sweat, and tears poured into it.
It's also odd to me that this thread reports the single running about 3:20-ish, which is the length of all of the stereo versions I have, while all of the mono versions I have run closer to 3:45-ish.
What's the story on the longer mono version, and should the stereo version be held in equal regard with the mono?
The stereo versions seem to be an early fade of the mono version, and the mono version tracks so tightly with the stereo version on Grrr! that I'd almost think Aftermath was a mono folddown of the stereo digital master used on Grrr! (I assume that's not the case; coincidence, or very well maintained reel to reel decks?)
Any insight on the mono vs. stereo mixes and the 3:20 vs. 3:45 lengths would be greatly appreciated!
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davidclark
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| Posted: 23 September 2021 at 2:16am | IP Logged
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NightAire,
This is what I have for "Paint It Black".
The 1966 commercial 45 was most certainly mono. For the most part,
stereo singles were not introduced until 1968 (a few), then more each year
until becoming the norm in 1973.
It was issued on the US issue of "Aftermath" in true stereo. So yes, the
stereo mix was done "at the same time".
The much longer, 3:45-ish versions I believe first came in the CD era, but I
could be wrong on that. But the 45 and "Aftermath" were in the 3:20 range.
Edited by davidclark on 23 September 2021 at 2:54am
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NightAire
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| Posted: 23 September 2021 at 6:35pm | IP Logged
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Thanks, David! So the "hit" version is mono, the LP version is stereo, and both are the same length. The mono long version is the single mix faded about 20 seconds later.
...I wonder if the later fade has ever made it out in stereo?
This is good info; thanks again.
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PopArchivist
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| Posted: 13 April 2022 at 5:02pm | IP Logged
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Interestingly enough the only correct mono version for the 45 is on the The Rolling Stones In Mono (Box Set). Otherwise it seems all appearances in mono run 20 seconds too long....
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 17 April 2022 at 10:00pm | IP Logged
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PopArchivist wrote:
Interestingly enough the only correct
mono version for the 45 is on the The Rolling Stones In
Mono (Box Set). Otherwise it seems all appearances in mono
run 20 seconds too long.... |
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The mono box actually runs a little longer than the U.S. 45
as well. The single drops the last two "hmm-hmms" of the
fourth line. There are four "hmm hmm hmm, hmm hmm hmm hmm,
hmm hmm, hmm hmm hmm...' lines in the mono box, but the 45
doesn't quite have the complete fourth one; it cuts off the
final two "hmm hmms."
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 18 April 2022 at 10:31am | IP Logged
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I found some UK 45's on YouTube that fade out as early as
3:15 and then found a U.S. 45 that runs 3:21. I had to slow
the Rolling Stones in Mono version by 1.3% and fade
slightly earlier to match the 3:21 45 which matches Jim's
45 timing.
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 18 April 2022 at 1:30pm | IP Logged
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eriejwg wrote:
I found some UK 45's on YouTube that fade out as early as 3:15 and then found a U.S. 45 that runs 3:21. I had to slow the Rolling Stones in Mono version by 1.3% and fade slightly earlier to match the 3:21 45
which matches Jim's 45 timing. |
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It's possible that the 45s were faded on the fly during the mastering process. I've heard of that happening before.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Rolling Stones-"Paint It, Black"
