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Fetta
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| Posted: 06 August 2016 at 9:35pm | IP Logged
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On a Album Network Tune Up #23 CD that I own, there is a
version of "Welcome To The Jungle" that has a listed
time of 4:11 (actual is 4:07 with about 4 seconds of
dead air). I am curious as to the origin of this
version. There is no mention of a promo or edit version
in the database and I couldn't find anything on-line.
Thanks.
-Jeff
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jimct
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| Posted: 06 August 2016 at 11:05pm | IP Logged
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Jeff, this is just another one of those already-quite-numerous examples
of those radio subscription music services (like TM Century, Promo Only,
etc.) or a similar-type promo V/A CD included inside a weekly radio trade
mag (like Hitmakers, Hits, etc.) that featured a unique version not on any
other official stock/promo label release of a song. Both promo 45 releases
for "...Jungle", both before and after "Sweet Child O' Mine", included only
the listed (4:31) LP version on both sides, as did the promo CD single.
Which is why there currently is no T4MOC db note for the version you've
just cited.
That particular Album Network Tune Up Volume came out during the 87-
88 infancy of such comps. Back then, you'd find a much wider variety of
sources utilized on those, from vinyl dubs, to in-house edits done by
these services. These folks had no choice but to resort to that practice at
times, because not all hit songs desired by radio had their radio edit
versions available on a digital source yet. But by 1989/1990, 99.9999% of
new releases all had promo CD singles issued, which meant that these
services could now ditch the earlier vinyl dubs/custom version creations
of past volumes, and just clone the promo CD single versions for their
comps. Easier for them to comp, and 100% digital was radio's clear source
preference.
The :04 seconds of dead air could also indicate some sort of mastering
error that occurred during the making of that particular CD volume. I own
plenty of these type comps, and such mastering errors were *far* more
frequent on those than you'd ever see on the mass-produced CDs sold to
the general public. Which makes sense, bases on the limited, not-for-sale
runs of those discs.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 07 August 2016 at 8:12am | IP Logged
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My promo CD single was sealed for the past 29 years until this morning. As the label indicates, the disc contains the full 4:31 LP version. It is, however, curious that the Album Network Tune Up CD would contain a shorter version. That particular volume was issued for rock radio (it's not a top 40 sampler), and I would think most rock stations would play full album versions (especially when we're talking about a less-than-30-seconds difference). Jeff, if you wouldn't mind shooting me a copy, I'd be curious to hear it.
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Fetta
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| Posted: 07 August 2016 at 1:23pm | IP Logged
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Sending your way Aaron.
What is also interesting to note is that I also own
Album Network CD Tune Up #14 and that volume includes
the regular 4:31 version which means that they already
had the correct version in house when they were
mastering volume #23. Curious as to why they went to an
edit and if it was done in-house or came from the label.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 07 August 2016 at 1:52pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for passing it along, Jeff! Some observations:
- There's a noticeable added layer of tape hiss compared to the full CD version, which likely indicates someone dubbed it to a reel tape (probably 15ips) and made the edit. It's more hiss than what I'd normally hear from a professional record company edit--like what you'd expect from a broadcast type reel tape dub.
- I heard two different edits, and both are in very awkward places. Not something I'd expect Geffen to release officially (or even unofficially).
- The total amount of time removed is about 25 seconds, and the edits kind of ruin the flow of the song. Why bother?
I could understand a custom in-house edit for "Paradise City," given the 6+ minute length, but I really don't see the point in shaving 25 seconds on "Welcome To The Jungle."
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jimct
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| Posted: 07 August 2016 at 2:57pm | IP Logged
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Surely the reason the song appeared on both Album Network CDs #14
and #23 were because radio serviced the song to Top 40 radio twice. The
first time was a unique "Don't Report This Record" promotion. Geffen's
initial angle was that they were already getting extremely heavy MTV and
AOR airplay, and selling many many GNR CDs. The band was not initially
considered to be a perfect match for Top 40 radio (too hard of an edge;
later to change, obviously). Geffen had a plan to deal with that perception.
Their first pitch to Top 40 was to "spike it in", airplay-wise, and play it at
night without ever officially adding it to their Top 40 playlist. (After "Sweet
Child..." hit, however, all such thinking was junked, and Geffen promoted
"...Jungle" to Top 40 radio the 2nd time the usual way (in other words,
wanting stations to officially report the fact they'd added the song to their
playlist.))
As for "The Album Network", while it was the company name, and no
doubt had its origins/roots in the AOR format, my clear recollection is
that over time, they expanded their promo CD format offerings to also
include Top 40 radio. We also did get in a few volumes from a similar
Album Network promo series that *very* much leaned AOR. But those
"Tune Up" CDs were Top 40-centric, and were extremely similar, track-
wise, to the Hitmakers & Hits compilations of the day.
As for Jeff's point that Album Network already had a digital "...Jungle"
master in-house, based on its appearance on CD #14 (which was no
surprise at all, considering that the full CD had already been out for
months, making it available as a digital source), his question is now why
would Album Newtork go to the bother to include a different song mix on
CD #23, and not just again include the CD #14 LP version again?
While exact repeat versions did appear on a later CD # on occasion, more
commonly done was that the producer of the promo comp would instead
want to offer radio something different - either a different song mix, be
it a dance edit, or a longer/shorter version. The folks who produced each
of these comps wanted these discs to be a valuable resource to radio
programmers. Anything they could do to stand out from other such radio
comps was very desirable. Many smaller U.S. Top 40 stations didn't get
great service from the record labels. If Hitmakers/Hits/Album Network
could make their promo CDs stand out from the others, the MD would
then hopefully lobby the GM to subscribe/renew to their magazine. (A
new promo CD was included in every issue, instantly improving any
station's service; ultimately, the major trade mags used producing these
CDs as "loss leaders", to attract new radio station subscribers.) Slots were
limited on these comps, and stations tended to keep the last 6-8 series
volumes handy, until all the songs included were no longer getting
current airplay. So exact version repeats did not really serve the purposes
of either radio or the magazines.
These comps were by *far* the most valuable to radio between 1987 &
1990, during the transition from promo 45s to promo CD singles. I was
extremely involved during those years, as I believe fellow radio vet/all
around good guy Bill Cahill was back then (and still is, in his case.)
Perhaps Bill can confirm/shed some additional light on these discs'
"reason for being."
Folks not working in radio back then can truly have *no* clue about why
these comps began to pop up in the first place, and why some of the
major radio trade magazines decided that they now had to get into the
promo CD manufacturing business. It's all deep "inside radio stuff".
So Jeff, I don't at *all* mean to be a wet blanket here, or dismissive of
your GNR version question here. Your query is valid. Whatever shorter
version of "...Jungle" ended up on CD #23 is surely to be a fun curiosity.
(Although the :04 of dead air still worries me here.) But 99% of these
unique-to-these-comps versions were no more the than trade mags'
attempt to stand out, and be good businessmen. By offering radio
something on there not found elsewhere, that would hopefully result in
radio Music Depts. choosing *their* specific promo discs over all the
others, wanting access to them, and either starting/renewing their
subscriptions to that particular trade mag.
*PS - While I was typing my lengthy reply, Aaron added his analysis of the
"...Jungle" version in question. His findings are totally consistent with
how/why these unique promo CD sampler versions pop up in the first
place...
Edited by jimct on 07 August 2016 at 3:54pm
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 07 August 2016 at 8:14pm | IP Logged
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Here are editing instructions for recreating this unsanctioned edit, using the version on Appetite For Destruction as the source.
Segment 1
Extends from 0:00.0 to 0:09.1 of the LP version
Segment ends right at the first drum hit
Remove four repetitions of the descending guitar line, from 0:09.1 to 0:18.6 of the LP version.
Segment 2
Extends from 0:18.6 to 3:18.1 of the LP version.
Segment begins on a downbeat (mid-yell, which makes for a very abrupt edit, as Aaron noted)
Segments ends on a downbeat following a drum fill
Remove the 28 beats from 3:18.1 to 3:31.1 of the LP version, which includes the great 4-cowbell drum fill.
Segment 3
Extends from 3:31.1 to 4:33.6 (end) of the LP version.
This, too, is a bad place for an edit.
Your unsanctioned edit will run 4:07, or 4:11.1 if you include the outro silence from the Appetite track.
I checked the length of the Album Network version, and their edit extends as far out with outro silence as the Appetite track. It's not a mastering error - that's how long it goes if you use the full length of the Appetite track, which is likely what they did.
My opinion: Don't repeat this edit yourself. It wasn't sanctioned by the band or Geffen, I doubt that anyone played it at the time, it will definitely grate on your listeners' ears if you play it for others (on the radio or for live gigs), and it just sounds bad.
There was a good reason that Geffen never edited this one; the LP version is pretty much perfect as-is.
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RichM921
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| Posted: 08 August 2016 at 7:38pm | IP Logged
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In the "Sweet Child O' Mine" thread and a couple other threads, there
is mention that the Canadian 45 of "Welcome To The Jungle" is a 3:35
edit. Has anyone verified this? I had always suspected the version of
Jungle that I heard on the radio then was an edit but after all these
years I can't be sure. About 15 years ago though I did download a
Jungle edit version. I don't recall if it was 3:35 but I can dig it up and
check.
Update: I just checked it out. This version of Jungle is indeed 3:35.
Was this the Canadian 45?
Edited by RichM921 on 08 August 2016 at 7:46pm
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jimct
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| Posted: 08 August 2016 at 8:00pm | IP Logged
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Nice catch, Rich. There were two listed (3:35) Canadian Geffen stock 45
copies for sale on eBay just now, so I just picked up the one that was in the
better listed condition. Once received, I'll pass it along to either Aaron, Mark
or both of them, for a content analysis....
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aaronk
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| Posted: 08 August 2016 at 8:08pm | IP Logged
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Hey Rich, what's missing from the 3:35 edit?
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Aaron Kannowski
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RichM921
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| Posted: 08 August 2016 at 8:19pm | IP Logged
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Aaron, let me just send you a copy since your analysis will probably be
quicker and more accurate than mine. I'll get it to you tomorrow.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 08 August 2016 at 8:51pm | IP Logged
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Thanks, Rich! No rush at all. I'm mainly just curious to know what they chopped out. For giggles, I made an edit tonight to see what I could chop out and still have the song flow well. I removed 1:23 to 2:06 and 4:04 to 4:11. The result sounds good and times to 3:40.
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thecdguy
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| Posted: 30 March 2021 at 5:53pm | IP Logged
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Did anyone ever find out what was missing/taken out on the 3:35 version that RichM921 mentioned, and is it available anywhere?
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aaronk
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| Posted: 31 March 2021 at 6:29am | IP Logged
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Sure, here's what was edited out (times based on
Appetite CD):
0:09.0 to 0:18.5
2:58.4 to 3:10.2
3:18.1 to 3:31.1
3:48.0 to 4:03.5 (edit is on the word "jungle")
Not a good edit, but there you have it.
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Aaron Kannowski
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PopArchivist
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| Posted: 31 March 2021 at 4:33pm | IP Logged
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aaronk wrote:
Sure, here's what was edited out (times based on
Appetite CD):
0:09.0 to 0:18.5
2:58.4 to 3:10.2
3:18.1 to 3:31.1
3:48.0 to 4:03.5 (edit is on the word "jungle")
Not a good edit, but there you have it. |
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So I take it this is the official Canadian 45 edit?
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aaronk
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| Posted: 31 March 2021 at 9:57pm | IP Logged
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Yes, that's what's on my Canadian stock copy.
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Aaron Kannowski
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Welcome To The Jungle - Guns N’ Roses
