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Loveland
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| Posted: 11 May 2019 at 7:14pm | IP Logged
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This is a follow up to Ron's post:
http://www.top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5975
The "problem", if you will, with a lot of the mixes of "Lost In Emotion" is that they are unnamed. Upon going through all the commercial singles and different compilations, I decided to assign mix names to two main single versions:
The "Single Version", which clocks at around 3:47 - 3:49, and the "Video Version", which clocks at around 4:34 - 4:28.
Columbia Records issued two separate commercial vinyl singles with the same catalog number (!), 38-07267. The first one includes the Single Version, while the second one includes the Video Version. Both vinyl single issues include "Motion Is Lost!" as the B-side (it's merely a different mix with more Cult Jam and less Lisa Lisa).
To make things even more confusing, there are TWO (!) separate pressings of "Gold & Platinum Volume Four", each one with different artworks. Realm Records is actually a Columbia House label, which means everything on this label was available exclusively via Columbia House. The first pressing of "Gold & Platinum Volume Four" includes the Single Version, while the second pressing includes the Video Version.
Most compilations include either the "F.F. Remix" or the "Album Version", while the LL & CJ compilation "Playlist" includes the "Lost In Emotion [Can't Find Myself Mix]", clocking at 4:50. Still with me? Such mix at that length never appeared on any editions of the "Lost In Emotion" single (!). However, the B-side on the U.S. commercial vinyl maxi single includes "Emotion Lost! [Can't Find Myself Mix]" track as the B-side, however this mix clocks at 4:00. Don't ask. The A-side is the F.F. Remix, which can be found on a couple of compilations.
The promo vinyl single includes the mix that clocks at 3:59 on both sides, which is the reason why I chose to dub it the "Single Version". The second commercial vinyl single includes the mix that clocks at around 4:34; this is the mix used for the music video, which is why I dub it the, um, "Video Version". Radio stations definitely play the "Single Version", which was on the promo vinyl single, sent to radio stations.
The mix found on "The Heart Of Soul" is definitely not the original single version, but the "Video Version".
U.S. Promo Vinyl Single, with the Single Version on both sides:
https://www.discogs.com/Lisa-Lisa-And-Cult-Jam-Lost-In-Emoti on/release/4324517
The first commercial U.S. vinyl single, with the Single Version:
https://www.discogs.com/Lisa-Lisa-And-Cult-Jam-Lost-In-Emoti on/release/1185777
The second commercial U.S. vinyl single, with the Video Version:
https://www.discogs.com/Lisa-Lisa-And-Cult-Jam-Lost-In-Emoti on/release/4258265
The commercial U.S. vinyl maxi single:
https://www.discogs.com/Lisa-Lisa-And-Cult-Jam-Lost-In-Emoti on/release/561075
The first pressing of "Gold & Platinum Volume Four" with the Single Version:
https://www.discogs.com/Various-Gold-Platinum-Volume-Four/re lease/3117944
The second pressing of "Gold & Platinum Volume Four" with the Single Version, but with a different artwork (!):
https://www.discogs.com/Various-Gold-Platinum-Volume-Four/re lease/12973232
This is the third pressing of "Gold & Platinum Volume Four" with the Video Version, BUT the same artwork as the first pressing (!):
https://www.discogs.com/Various-Gold-Platinum-Volume-Four/re lease/4627696
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aaronk
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Loveland, do you happen to own a commercial or promo 45 that has an actual run time of 3:59? If so, can you please post the matrix information? There is another thread on this song where other members have stated that both promo and stock copies with printed times of 3:59 have actual run times of 4:34. To date, you're the first person who has stated that there are promo and stock copies that actually run 3:59.
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Loveland
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aaronk wrote:
| Loveland, do you happen to own a commercial or promo 45 that has an actual run time of 3:59? If so, can you please post the matrix information? There is another thread on this song where other members have stated that both promo and stock copies with printed times of 3:59 have actual run times of 4:34. To date, you're the first person who has stated that there are promo and stock copies that actually run 3:59. |
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Grrr, Aaron! You're making me doubt myself. I don't have it with me, I'll have to dig it out. But I definitely remember the Single Version being played and not the Video Version. It's very easy to distinguish them, the single version omits this part (which is found on the video version):
(Lost) With my feeling
(Lost) I hit the ceiling
(Lost) With big emotions
(Lost) I can't be dealing
(Lost) I wanna be with you
(Lost) But I don't know how
(Lost) In my heart, babe
I can feel the beat now
(Lost in emotion)
(Lost in emotion)
We're (lost in emotion)
(Lost) My baby
You know that I'm
(Lost) My baby
(Lost in emotion) My-m-m-my-my baby
(Lost in emotion)
(Lost in emotion)
(Lost)
The music video (the omitted part starts at around 3:28):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If8by9Df4wM
This song has aged extremely well, it really is great pop song.
Edited by Loveland on 12 May 2019 at 9:29am
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aaronk
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When I get a chance, I'll dig out my stock and promo copies and time
them. It would be nice if someone has a copy to verify for sure, and
then Pat can add the info to the database. Thanks for pointing out that
a 3:59 version does indeed exist.
Edited by aaronk on 12 May 2019 at 11:16am
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Aaron Kannowski
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Loveland
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aaronk wrote:
When I get a chance, I'll dig out my stock and promo copies and time
them. It would be nice if someone has a copy to verify for sure, and
then Pat can add the info to the database. Thanks for pointing out that
a 3:59 version does indeed exist. |
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There is no question that a "Single Version" at 3:59 exists, and it's not merely a fade. Both "Single Version" and "Video Version" have a "Remixed by Full Intention" credit.
Finally, I have figure out the story with the "Emotion Lost! [Can't Find Myself Mix]": The mix really does clock at 4:20, although the commercial vinyl maxi single indicate the mix clocks at just 4:00. Then I read this on the Discogs' entry for the single:
Quote:
| Note: There are more sounds in the inner grooves of Side B, 6 seconds after B track finishes (in dead-space). |
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Yes. this mix sort of ends at around 4:02, then there are a few seconds of dead silence, and then the mix resumes at 4:09. This track really is 4:20. It's a peculiar mix, as it includes vocals Glenn "White Boy" Rosenstein and Jimmy Santis. This mix can be found only on:
https://www.discogs.com/Lisa-Lisa-Cult-Jam-Spanish-Fly-Strai ght-To-The-Sky/release/3864074
Now, where "Lost In Emotion [Can't Find Myself Mix]" (notice that this mix is named after the song and not "Motion Is Lost!") came from... I don't believe this mix was ever released before. It appears on:
https://www.discogs.com/Lisa-Lisa-Cult-Jam-Playlist-The-Very -Best-Of-Lisa-Lisa-Cult-Jam/release/7397615
It's longer than the Single Version and Video Version, but shorter than the F.F. Remix and the Album Version. I have a headache.
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crapfromthepast
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I found two different videos on YouTube of the commercial 45 being played, with the 3:59 printed run time, but running 4:34.
I strongly suspect that the 3:59 time on the commercial 45 is a misprint. The matrix number on the label of the 3:59 45 (both the promo and the commercial versions) matches the matrix number on the label of the 4:34 45, for what it's worth.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 13 May 2019 at 8:31am | IP Logged
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This is also what I suspect, Ron, but I'll pull my 45
copies today. The Gold & Platinum Vol. 4 CD does
contain a 3:54 edit of the Full Force Remix, and Pat
currently has this listed as "neither 45 nor LP
version." I also looked at a dozen different 45
pictures on eBay, and the matrix number on the label for
both 4:34 and 3:59 pressings is the same on all of them:
ZSS 176141. If the version on each were different, I'd
expect the matrix number to be different.
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Paul C
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| Posted: 13 May 2019 at 8:44am | IP Logged
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FWIW, even my Canadian commercial 45, which states the run time as
3:59, actually runs 4:34.
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crapfromthepast
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In the Gold And Platinum thread, I noted that the source of the short edit is the G&P disc itself: G&P is digitally exactly 0.4 dB louder than The Heart Of Soul until an edit at 3:21 that removes 80 beats of the song. This short edit didn't come from any existing version of the song from a prior Columbia release, but was specifically made for Gold And Platinum Vol. 4. It would not surprise me if Gold And Platinum Vol. 4 is the only place where this edit exists.
I knew that the first few Gold And Platinum discs were rereleased with different cover art, but I strongly doubt that there are any mastering differences between the original releases and the rereleases. I suspect that the reported timing on Discogs is incorrect for this second release of G&P Vol. 4. I have the original release, BTW, and that's what's reported in the other thread.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 13 May 2019 at 9:11am
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Santi Paradoa
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The 3:59 time on the 45's label may just be an attempt
to garner more radio play by suggesting the song is less
than four minutes in length.
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aaronk
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My promo 45 has the same listed 3:59, actual 4:34 time on both sides. Unless a different promo was pressed up, I'd say the shorter edit was never sent to radio.
My stock copy has a printed time of 3:59 but an actual time of 4:34. The printed matrix number on both my promo and stock copies is ZSS 176141.
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Paul Haney
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| Posted: 14 May 2019 at 3:34am | IP Logged
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crapfromthepast wrote:
In the Gold And Platinum
thread, I noted that the source of the short edit is the
G&P disc itself: G&P is digitally exactly
0.4 dB louder than The Heart Of Soul until an edit
at 3:21 that removes 80 beats of the song. This short
edit didn't come from any existing version of the song
from a prior Columbia release, but was specifically made
for Gold And Platinum Vol. 4. It would not
surprise me if Gold And Platinum Vol. 4 is the
only place where this edit exists.
I knew that the first few Gold And Platinum discs
were rereleased with different cover art, but I strongly
doubt that there are any mastering differences between
the original releases and the rereleases. I suspect that
the reported timing on Discogs is incorrect for this
second release of G&P Vol. 4. I have the original
release, BTW, and that's what's reported in the other
thread. |
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I think Ron hit the nail on the head here.
IIRC, at least a couple of those Gold & Platinum discs
are full of early fades. I remember that I was very
disappointed when I bought them many years ago.
FWIW, I only recall hearing the (4:34) version on the
radio at the time the song was a hit.
Edited by Paul Haney on 14 May 2019 at 3:37am
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Loveland
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Paul Haney wrote:
I think Ron hit the nail on the head here.
IIRC, at least a couple of those Gold & Platinum discs
are full of early fades. I remember that I was very
disappointed when I bought them many years ago.
FWIW, I only recall hearing the (4:34) version on the
radio at the time the song was a hit. |
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I respectfully disagree with Ron (sorry, Ron). The "Single Version" (3:57 - 3:59), is NOT an early fade.
This is my educated guess: The real 'Single Version'(3:57) does exist and it was the mix meant for radio. For whatever reason, the 'Video Version' was the mix pressed on the vinyl single. When Columbia Records caught the error, Columbia Records simply issued a second pressing with the same mix but the corrected track's length. Around this time, it was very common for music video to have an exclusive mix, usually slightly different to the single version. Realm Records is a Columbia House label, which only issued compilations of anything they had the rights to (via Columbia House). When they were looking for shorter singles, they found the 3:57 mix of "Lost In Emotion", and they probably didn't even realize the story behind the single.
None of this would've happened if Columbia Records bothered to give names to each individual mix. This also would explain the mystery behind "Lost In Emotion [Can't Find Myself Mix]", first released on the "Playlist" compilation, and not be confused with "Emotion Lost! [Can't Find Myself Mix]" (the vinyl maxi single's B-side) and "Motion Is Lost" (the vinyl single's B-side).
Their debut album,, which wasn't even a hit in the U.K., got the deluxe reissue treatment (2 CDs), and yet their second album has yet to be re-released.
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Paul Haney
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| Posted: 14 May 2019 at 5:57pm | IP Logged
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To be fair, Ron stated that the version on G&P was an
edit, not an early fade. If there was truly this shorter
version floating around, then why is it ONLY found on that
G&P CD, a CD that is full of truncated versions?
Until I actually see or hear of a commercial or promo 45
with that shorter version, I'm just not buying it.
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Loveland
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Paul Haney wrote:
To be fair, Ron stated that the version on G&P was an
edit, not an early fade. If there was truly this shorter
version floating around, then why is it ONLY found on that
G&P CD, a CD that is full of truncated versions?
Until I actually see or hear of a commercial or promo 45
with that shorter version, I'm just not buying it. |
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Please re-read my last post. On my lost post I literally discussed what it might have happened. Did you not read it? No one is asking you to buy anything, nor forcing you to do anything. Unless we speak directly with Full Force, we probably will never find out the 'truth'. I, for one, will never understand the hostility of some members. I very clearly indicated that my last post was my educated guess.
IMHO, I seriously doubt that a Columbia House's compilation label (owned by CBS Records, owner of Columbia Records) would go into the studio to re-mix a chart song. To truncate a song and simply fade it early is one thing. Also, the compilation with this track was released right after the song had peaked. I really don't think it's a coincidence that the mix featured on the Realm Records compilation is the same length as the track that was meant to be on the promo vinyl single and the first pressing of the commercial vinyl single.
Again: MY EDUCATED GUESS. I'm glad I have both mixes and I play both of them.
Edited by Loveland on 14 May 2019 at 6:23pm
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aaronk
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One of the things Ron is an expert at is tracing the mastering history of songs on CD. What he stated above is true, and I can confirm it by doing the same "null test."
The 4:34 single version (the only single version we have been able to confirm on any US vinyl single) was released on Heart Of Soul. Realm Records then digitally copied the tracks from this CD and from Heart Of Rock for their Gold & Platinum Vol. 4 CD. For many of the tracks, they created early fades. For "Lost In Emotion," they made an edit.
If you put both CD versions in a multi-tracker, they stay perfectly in sync all the way up to the edit point. If this was taken from a master tape sitting in the Columbia Vault, there's no way it would stay exactly in sync with the 4:34 version up to the edit point and be the exact same volume on both CDs.
It's possible that a shorter version was created and intended to be released, but I can confidently conclude that the version on Gold & Platinum Vol. 4 is not it. It's not a different mix; it's just a simple edit that cuts out a 40-second chunk of the true single version.
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Loveland
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aaronk wrote:
One of the things Ron is an expert at is tracing the mastering history of songs on CD. What he stated above is true, and I can confirm it by doing the same "null test."
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Oh I know. It's thanks to him that I have managed to track down the FOUR DIFFERENT pressings of Milli Vanilli's "Girl You Know It's True". Thanks to his guidance, I managed to figure it out the many different mixes, and I was able tp track down all the different promos and CD maxi singles from around the world. The only mix that has eluded me, and I do believe it has been issued anywhere, is the "Girl You Know It's True" they performed at the Grammys. That mix includes additional vocals (additional lyrics) that are ONLY found on the Super Club Mix (8:33). That mix is EVERYTHING!
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Paul Haney
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Loveland wrote:
Please re-read my last post. On my lost
post I literally discussed what it might have happened.
Did you not read it? No one is asking you to buy
anything, nor forcing you to do anything. Unless we
speak directly with Full Force, we probably will never
find out the 'truth'. I, for one, will never understand
the hostility of some members. I very clearly indicated
that my last post was my educated guess.
IMHO, I seriously doubt that a Columbia House's
compilation label (owned by CBS Records, owner of
Columbia Records) would go into the studio to re-mix a
chart song. To truncate a song and simply fade it early
is one thing. Also, the compilation with this track was
released right after the song had peaked. I really don't
think it's a coincidence that the mix featured on the
Realm Records compilation is the same length as the track
that was meant to be on the promo vinyl single and the
first pressing of the commercial vinyl single.
Again: MY EDUCATED GUESS. I'm glad I have both mixes
and I play both of them. |
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Wow, sorry if my post came off as "hostile." It
certainly wasn't my intent. I think just about everybody
here knows that I'm a pretty easy-going, friendly sort of
guy. Of all the internet forums I've participated in, I
find this one far and away the most polite and
respectful.
When it comes to different edits. mixes, etc., I simply
like to deal in facts, not speculation. A good example:
I have a version of "Boogie Wonderland" by Earth, Wind &
Fire with The Emotions that runs about 3 and a half
minutes. It's been released on a handful of CDs over the
years. I'm certain that I heard that version on the air
in 1979. I was pretty sure there HAD to be an official
release (promo at least) of that shorter version. I
brought it to the board and the consensus was that it was
never an official release. Until one turns up, it's just
something I have to accept. Doesn't stop me from
enjoying that version as it really tightens up the song
for me.
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crapfromthepast
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Loveland - Paul's post was certainly not hostile, and it's not the intent of anyone on this forum to offend anybody. This is likely the most polite and constructive music forum out there (BSN is good, too). Paul is as good-natured as anyone you'll ever encounter.
Regarding this thread, I think there are two points that will get a broad consensus here.
First, we don't have any evidence that a 3:59 version exists on a 45. All the evidence points to the 3:59 printed time as being a label misprint. (We don't know what the intent was at Columbia, but we're pretty sure that what's actually on all the pressings of the 45 is the 4:34 version.)
It's my opinion that because the printed 3:59 time was on the promo 45, the printed 3:59 time was also on first pressings of the commercial 45, and the printed 4:34 was on later pressings of the commercial 45.
Second, I am 100% certain that the edit on Gold & Platinum Vol. 4 was made specifically for that CD, based on the null test data from the other thread.
It's my opinion that the engineer at Realm made an edit, rather than an early fade, because "Lost In Emotion" ends with cold ending, rather than a fade. The other tracks on G&P that are faded early all have a fade ending.
It's also my opinion that the engineer at Realm saw a printed time of 3:59 on the 45, and edited the audio from The Heart Of Soul to roughly match that time.
You can certainly round up and document the dizzying array of other versions out there - that's the fun of collecting.
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PopArchivist
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Ron and Loveland,
There are certain times where, like Lost In Emotion, you can't find any evidence to support that the 3:59 is an actual radio edit, but you include it in your collection nonetheless in order to be as complete as possible.
For example, there is no radio edit of Faith by George Michael that is "official". I am however pretty sure I never heard the organ at the beginning of the radio and therefore starting the song when it begins and ending it creates a 2:37 radio edit. Is it official? No. Sometimes even if all the evidence says the version with the organ is the 45, its my opinion that radio would not have wasted 35 seconds on an organ playing nor would MTV playing the video.
I've heard the same Boogie Wonderland version Paul refers to and its in my collection. Just because its not stamped an official edit does not mean that it should be ignored in favor of the 45. Like Paul said, it is a tight version of a very popular song.
So in closing the 3:59 of Lost in Emotion is in my collection as a radio edit. Whether official or not, for me it still remains feasible that it could have been played, just as Paul thought the Boogie Wonderland version was. That's the fun of collecting, we all have our opinions and we all can debate. In the end to each their own in collecting, as Ron pointed out, that's the fun of it all.
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Topic: Lisa Lisa & Cult Jam "Lost In Emotion"
