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PopArchivist
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| Posted: 02 February 2021 at 7:06pm | IP Logged
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For those who don't know, there is a 4:04 mono radio edit of Christopher Cross Sailing on the 45 from 1980 which leads me to a question.
Especially considering it was 1980 if that edit was recreated in stereo, would it still be considered a radio edit? My line is 1976 for mono generally, by that time 99.9 percent of the Hot 100 was stereo. By 1980 it was 100 percent.
I ask because many late 70's songs had mono shorter edits. For those at radio, if you could recreate the edit or early fade of the 45 edit in stereo at your station, did you?
I personally feel mono radio edits from the very late 70's onward should be done in stereo if possible. Unless someone can offer a different view, which is why I ask.
Edited by PopArchivist on 02 February 2021 at 7:07pm
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 02 February 2021 at 7:55pm | IP Logged
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Promo 45s usually had a stereo version on one side and a mono version on the other, through about 1982. (Others, please correct this year if I'm off a little bit.)
The mono side was generally for AM radio stations, which dominated the music radio landscape until about 1982.
Around 1982-ish, a lot of top 40 stations took off on FM, and moved the critical mass of music radio from AM to FM. WLOL/Minneapolis flipped to top 40 in 1981. WPLJ/New York flipped to top 40 and Z100/New York signed on in 1983. Just two examples. Mono disappeared at this point.
Regarding what was on the mono side of those promo 45s, it varied from 45 to 45. There were quite a few dedicated mono mixes in the early '70s, and there were quite a few fold-downs (i.e., the stereo mix with the channels combined). The dedicated mono mixes dwindled as the '70s wore on. The latest dedicated mono mix I have is Asia's "Heat Of The Moment", which was released in early 1982.
I'm not sure what you're asking, but radio stations in the '70s usually played what was on the records. A production manager would play the record once and record it onto a "cart" (short for "cartridge", which included an endless loop of tape and looked a lot like an 8-track). The radio station would play the carts on the air.
Top 40 played the 45s, freeform FMs played the album versions, rock radio (popular in the late '70s) played the album versions, and (short-lived) disco stations played the 12-inch singles.
There are only a handful of in-house edits out there for the big hits. Everything else was on the records.
If you're asking about whether a station would have done an in-house edit in stereo, I'd say that it's doubtful for AM stations, and almost certain for FM stations.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 03 February 2021 at 7:53am
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aaronk
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| Posted: 02 February 2021 at 8:26pm | IP Logged
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The only thing I’ll add to Ron’s excellent explanation is that most
mono/stereo promo 45 configurations have the same edit/length on
both sides. The examples of “Sailing” and “Heat Of The Moment” are
the exception and not the norm in that the edited side was only in
mono. I’d be curious to know if anyone recalls playing or hearing he
mono edits on FM radio when they were hits. I was too young to
remember what version of “Heat Of The Moment” they played on my
local station in ‘82, but I fondly recall playing my stock 45 to death as a
kid.
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Gary
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| Posted: 03 February 2021 at 9:23am | IP Logged
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I'm thinking this may have had to do with the way some
AM stations were wired for output as some stereo
recordings were only sent over one channel(either only
left or only right) on some AM stations. I know my set
of stations bought a local cluster and their AM station
did this on some tunes from the Beatles and Mamas & The
Papas for example. If I recall correctly, our engineer
set up something to correct this. I can ask our current
engineer about this. Any engineers out there on the
board?
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aaronk
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| Posted: 03 February 2021 at 9:49am | IP Logged
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Good point, Gary. I should also clarify my above statement about the "exceptions." What I meant is that it's an exception when the edited side is in mono, while the un-edited side is stereo. Most of the time, when promos have a short/long configuration, they are either in stereo on both sides or in mono on both sides. The exception I was referring to is when there's a short version in mono on one side and a long version in stereo on the other side. Yes, there are more examples of this ("Tragedy" by the Bee Gees comes to mind), but I've seen them far less often.
Going back to Rich's original question, if the mono edit was never released in stereo, would a matching stereo edit qualify as a legit promo version? I could see arguments in favor of both sides. My personal feeling is that if the edit only existed in mono and the mono is a fold-down of the stereo, then I'm fine with the stereo edit. If, however, the mono edit was a dedicated mix, I stick with the mono edit and mix. "He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother" by the Hollies is an example of where both officially exist. On one side of the promo 45 is a short version that's also a dedicated mono mix. The other side has the same short version but uses the stereo mix.
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Kevin711
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| Posted: 03 February 2021 at 11:15am | IP Logged
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This is all very interesting. Some of it I knew already
but some of it is new information to me. As regards "He
Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother", does anyone here know how
to recreate the short version mentioned by Aaron?
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 03 February 2021 at 5:58pm | IP Logged
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Kevin, here is what Aaron posted about the mono promo edit
of the Hollies back in 2007 -
The 3:33 length is on the mono side of the 45, and it
runs an actual 3:32. The 3:37 length is on the stereo side,
and it runs an actual 3:36. Both versions are early fades
of the longer version commonly found on CD. For the
editors, the mono side has a 12 beat fade out lasting 9.5
seconds. The stereo side starts to fade in the same place,
but the fade lasts 13.5 seconds. It's a very gradual fade
out until about the last four seconds, where it starts to
fade much quicker.
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Kevin711
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| Posted: 04 February 2021 at 12:22am | IP Logged
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Eriejwg, thanks for the information.
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Hykker
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| Posted: 04 February 2021 at 6:56am | IP Logged
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Gary wrote:
I'm thinking this may have had to do
with the way some
AM stations were wired for output as some stereo
recordings were only sent over one channel(either only
left or only right) on some AM stations. I know my
set
of stations bought a local cluster and their AM
station
did this on some tunes from the Beatles and Mamas &
The
Papas for example. If I recall correctly, our engineer
set up something to correct this. I can ask our
current
engineer about this. Any engineers out there on the
board? |
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(raises hand). I've been doing broadcast engineering
for a living since the late 90s (and was always in
some sort of tech field for my "day job" most of my
adult life).
The way you describe sounded like a really half-@ssed
way of doing it...taking just one channel of a stereo
cartridge on air??? Jeez, at least mono out the 2
channels before the preamp if you don't want to spend
the money on a stereo preamp.
The first 2 stations I worked at as a part-timer ('67-
74) just had mono cartridges. Worked OK most of the
time, but some stereo songs had odd artifacts. Later
stations had stereo cartridges (in the production
studio at least), and carted the music.
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KentT
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| Posted: 07 February 2021 at 7:08am | IP Logged
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Gary wrote:
I'm thinking this may have had to do with
the way some
AM stations were wired for output as some stereo
recordings were only sent over one channel(either only
left or only right) on some AM stations. I know my set
of stations bought a local cluster and their AM station
did this on some tunes from the Beatles and Mamas & The
Papas for example. If I recall correctly, our engineer
set up something to correct this. I can ask our current
engineer about this. Any engineers out there on the
board? |
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The stations who did it right, had their cartridges
Stereo and summed the channels at the phono stage
output. Likewise with CD and automation
outputs/satellite receiver audio outputs as well.
However, do bear in mind, not all Stereo folds well to
mono. Sometimes, for AM and FM mono station use, record
labels adjusted mixes or even did dedicated mono mixes
for radio station use, when necessary. These are my
thoughts, and practices as a station engineer.
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Gary
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| Posted: 07 February 2021 at 2:46pm | IP Logged
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Hykker wrote:
(raises hand). I've been doing broadcast engineering
for a living since the late 90s (and was always in
some sort of tech field for my "day job" most of my
adult life).
The way you describe sounded like a really half-@ssed
way of doing it...taking just one channel of a stereo
cartridge on air??? Jeez, at least mono out the 2
channels before the preamp if you don't want to spend
the money on a stereo preamp.
The first 2 stations I worked at as a part-timer ('67-
74) just had mono cartridges. Worked OK most of the
time, but some stereo songs had odd artifacts. Later
stations had stereo cartridges (in the production
studio at least), and carted the music.
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Yes I agree - this we found out as well as many other things that were rigged up really odd or didn't make any sense. All were fixed by our engineer.
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NightAire
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| Posted: 08 February 2021 at 12:14am | IP Logged
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If an engineer was stuck with stereo equipment, I could see him pulling one channel of a stereo cart rather than summing both channels. The reason would be to avoid phasing issues.
However, if the source material wasn't summed to mono when the cart was originally created, you'd have all kinds of problems, especially from stereo 60s recordings where vocals would all be in one channel and instruments all in the other.
Regarding original in mono / re-edit to stereo: I am a stickler for being accurate to what was played on the air BUT I have made two exceptions in my 1980s single library.
One is the above-mentioned Asia - Heat Of The Moment edit, and the other is Melt With You by Modern English which bafflingly was released ONLY in mono in 1982. (The album version was stereo but not the correct mix.)
My reason for this is that the stereo re-creations of these mixes fold down to mono to exactly match the original mono single so I'm not changing the balance only the location in a stereo field.
Additionally, when I listened to music on AM I always assumed it was in mono as a limitation of the station, not a limitation of the recording... in other words I "heard" it in stereo in my head, even though it was only coming out of one speaker. I always assumed the original recording was stereo. The idea that the mixer would have wanted all the sounds coming out of both speakers equally (because I was always listening ON a stereo) just never crossed my mind. Why would they want something that lame? ;-)
At the risk of taking this off into another tangent, I will say that I wouldn't mind stereo versions of 60s hits that were originally mixed to mono for airplay IF the stereo mixes actually folded down properly into the original mono mix. Usually, the 60s stereo mixes are a mess and may resemble the mono single version in performance only: no reverb or added reverb, levels between instruments radically different, or worst of all missing overdubs entirely.
If a stereo mix "unfolds" the mono mix and that's ALL it does, I am for it. If it changes the levels, ambiance, content, compression, eq, etc. then I am against it.
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Topic: mono Radio Edits from 1976 Onward [OT]
