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sriv94
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I think I may have found another case where an improper edit was used to create a 45 version. For Air Supply's "Sweet Dreams," I'm almost positive that the guitar solo edit on the Sweet Dreams: The Pure Pop Collection compilation is not correct. I have a Madacy CD called Love In The 80s, Volume 1 that I do believe has the correct edit (although it runs (3:58) instead of (3:47)).
Anyone wanna volunteer to help me to check this out? :)
Edited by sriv94 on 01 November 2005 at 3:51pm
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sriv94
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Whoops, both of these versions run (3:58). Should that be the correct time for the 45, or is it (3:47) as it says on the label?
And if anyone has the vinyl 45 to check, the edit I'm trying to isolate as being correct or incorrect happens around the (2:51) mark.
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EdisonLite
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Since the 45 had a different mix than the album, can a proper edit of the album even be done? Besides some of the intro being newly recorded on the 45, weren't the other differences, too?
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sriv94
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The edit and mix at the beginning was nailed correctly by both CDs. So I'm assuming both CDs used the 45 mix, but the Pure Pop CD improperly edited the guitar solo, while the Madacy one got it right.
You've actually produced compilations, Gordon, so maybe you're the right one to answer this. A song like "Sweet Dreams" has a single mix/edit and a full-length LP mix. That track gets licensed for use, and let's assume that both forms are at their disposal to use. How is the decision usually made to determine which version to use, or to fudge with the whole thing and create something custom (as in the Pure Pop CD using the 45 mix but doing a different edit on the guitar solo)?
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aaronk
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I've helped work on the track listing for a compilation once before, and it is my understanding that you agree which version will be licensed for the disc, and that is the version you use. In cases where the wrong version makes it on a compilation, like in the above situation, they probably did that in error or without permission. Correct me if I am wrong.
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EdisonLite
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Well, having done many compilation CDs, I can tell you that it's not as clear cut (or often thought out) as that. Most "caring" labels, like Rhino and Varese Sarabande, are usually aware of the different versions and have a policy as to what to use. For instance, at Rhino, for anything like "Super Hits of the '70s" or "Pop Hits of the '80s", the single version is chosen -- as long as it can be found in the vaults. Often, when labels like that do an artist comp, like a "Best of Andrew Gold", Rhino will go with the album versions of "Lonely Boy" and "Thank You For Being a Friend", figuring that's what his fans want. Whereas for V.A. comps, people usually want to hear the version they knew from the radio. The artist comp rule doesn't always apply, as one can look at Rhino's Marty Balin compilation where the single edit of "Do It For Love" was included. I wasn't working with them back then but I would have gone with the album version! So ... many times it's simply the taste of the compilation producer. And like I said, that's with CARING labels. For all other labels, most of these comps are put together by people that don't really know the music and they just grab the first thing they find. Sometimes the secretaries grab the tapes. And nobody knows what's going on. Nor are they aware that there are different versions.
In terms of these alternate mixes showing up, like "Sweet Dreams", I'm not really sure what happened there. It could have been another edit done back in the day (and never used), and someone just grabbed the wrong tape for the CD release.
But assuming that's NOT the case with "Sweet Dreams", I'm a little confused with the posts above. If both CDs used the 45 mix of "Sweet Dreams", as you say above, why would they even need to do an edit to approximate the 45? If they truly had the 45 master, there would be no editing to do. My guess is all they could find is this extended 45 mix (for lack of a better term) and they decided to edit it in an unsuccessful attempt to recreate the 45 version. I also have the short version of "Sweet D" on an import CD from the Phillipines -- I wonder if it has the true 45 version.
Edited by EdisonLite on 02 November 2005 at 4:23pm
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sriv94
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EdisonLite wrote:
| But assuming that's NOT the case with "Sweet Dreams", I'm a little confused with the posts above. If both CDs used the 45 mix of "Sweet Dreams", as you say above, why would they even need to do an edit to approximate the 45? If they truly had the 45 master, there would be no editing to do. My guess is all they could find is this extended 45 mix (for lack of a better term) and they decided to edit it in an unsuccessful attempt to recreate the 45 version. I also have the short version of "Sweet D" on an import CD from the Phillipines -- I wonder if it has the true 45 version. |
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Thanks for the insight. That was a cool read.
I had conveniently forgotten that in the case of "Sweet Dreams" you could not merely edit the LP to get the 45 because of the different beginning (as I said, both of these CDs did get the 45 beginning correct; the only difference in the two CDs as far as I can tell is the edit in the guitar solo).
Since I'm working without vinyl (we know already!), does anyone have the 45 (and is willing to take an MP3 sample from me of the two guitar solo edits to see which of the two is the proper one)?
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Todd Ireland
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Although I don't have a vinyl 45 copy of "Sweet Dreams", I've done an A/B comparison between the version on Sweet Dreams: The Pure Pop Collection (BMG Special Products 44683) and what I believe is the correct 45 version on the Air Supply best-of UK import CD Making Love... The Very Best of (Arista 210 757).
Doug, I think you're definitely onto something here... There indeed appears to be an improper (and poorly spliced) edit on "Sweet Dreams" at the 2:55 mark on the Pure Pop Collection disc. The import CD by comparison has a much smoother edit, which I'm guessing is the same as on your Love In The 80s, Volume 1 disc. I'll do my best to seek out an mp3 copy of the "Sweet Dreams" 45, listen to the edit on it, and determine which CD most closely mirrors the single.
Edited by Todd Ireland on 02 November 2005 at 10:50pm
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aaronk
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Good info, EdisonLite. I was also told by someone who masters CDs (the guy who mastered the project I worked on) that the source of the song does not HAVE to come from the master tape in the vaults. For example, if you're licensing the LP version of "Sweet Dreams" for a compilation, you can pull it from the Air Supply cd that has the LP version, instead of going through the trouble of getting the original tape. Is this true?
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EdisonLite
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Well, I've never been in a record company vault to know for sure, but I'd say that happens a lot, where a record company just pulls the song from a CD that's already out. I know of one case where the Owner (located in the UK) sent the reissue label a mono copy of the song, and due to how close the deadline was, someone knew of a CD stereo version which was available only on an import CD, and that's where the version came from. This, of course, is a bit of a different case because the label wanted the song in stereo and didn't expect the owner to send a mono copy. But at any rate, I believe labels do take from other CDs a lot.
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Todd Ireland
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My main man Edtop40 was charitable enough to e-mail me both an mp3 of his "Sweet Dreams" commercial 45 copy and an mp3 of the song as it appears on the Madacy CD Love In The 80s, Volume 1. After doing some direct comparisons, here's what I've concluded:
The Love in the 80s, Volume 1 and the Air Supply Making Love... The Very Best of import CD both contain the correct 45 edit of "Sweet Dreams". Meanwhile, as Doug suspected, the version on the Pure Pop Collection disc is indeed incorrectly edited at the 2:55 mark and therefore is not the true 45 version as the database currently shows. Please take note.
Question for EdisonLite:
In your experience, how good are record labels at marking their master tapes in such a way that indicates which specific versions of songs are on the tapes?
Edited by Todd Ireland on 03 November 2005 at 11:46pm
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EdisonLite
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I have no idea as I have never been involved on that end of it (or been in the vaults to actually see the tapes and their labels.) That would be a good question to ask someone like Bill Inglot who collects tapes for many of the Rhino, Varese Sarabande and other labels' reissues (including many CDs I worked on.)
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crapfromthepast
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Just reviewing my Air Supply stuff, so I thought I'd revive this old thread.
The true 45 (Arista AS 0655, printed 3:46) actually runs 3:55, and cannot truly be recreated from the LP version due to the extra stuff present on the LP version's intro, which you all know.
If you overlook the discrepancy on the intro, here are instructions for creating the rest of the edits (timing based on Time-Life's Body Talk - From The Heart, 1997):
Remove 0:00.0-0:51.3 of the LP version.
Keep 0:51.3-3:45.5 of the LP version (keeping in mind that the the first 8 seconds of the 45 don't quite match the mix of the LP version).
Edit on the downbeat, keeping the first 8 beats of the guitar solo.
Remove the 16 beats from 3:45.5-4:00.1.
Keep the 8 beats from 4:00.1-4:07.5.
Edit on downbeat.
Remove the 16 beats from 4:07.5-4:22.1.
Keep 4:22.1-5:21 (end) of the LP version.
Your mixdown excluding outro silence runs about 3:57, with outro silence runs about 4:01, with edits at 2:54.3 and 3:01.8.
By the way, I found the true 45 version on The "A" List Disc 13, and I'd be willing to guess that it also appears on a TM Century disc as well.
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MMathews
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Todd Ireland wrote:
Question for EdisonLite:
In your experience, how good are record labels at marking their master tapes in such a way that indicates which specific versions of songs are on the tapes? |
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Hi All,
I've chatted with quite a few of the guys who've had vault access and with some fine folks who've worked for small reissue labels.
Answer to Todd's question above is: In general, not very good at all.
Pretty much anything goes when someone actually enters these vaults and goes thru the tapes that are there. Sure sometimes things are clearly labeled and accurate. Often things are wrong, incomplete or not labeled at ALL. Also, sometimes what you are looking for is not in a "vault" at all. It might be in some producers basement. There are a million stories of tape mis-treatment, loss or carelessness.
Now, licensing has 2 phases, obtaining permission to issue a track and then "mechanical licensing" and that's the fee you pay for the label (or owner) to actually provide you with a copy of the track. Otherwise, you are on your own for finding a copy to reproduce, and that might be from a record. K-tel was a famous example of using records for their sources, as well as many others.
In recent decades, for major labels the copy that you are provided is whatever was dubbed for use in their "special products" division. They don't go vault diving every time - unless you pay $$ for someone to do that for you, and you best have a catalog or master# that they are to pull for you. Searching is time consuming and costly.
As for tape sources, the days of them dubbing off an actual tape for a licensee are long long ago. A digital a copy is quickly dubbed to a digital format (like DAT in early 90's and CDR in recent years) and you get that in the mail. You can request a version, but you may not get what you ask for. If they don't have you want handy, you may have to search other sources like vinyl and existing CD's and take from there. Even labels like Varese have to do this.
Larger labels like Rhino had more money to spend producing comps and therefore spend more to produce...so their mastering engineer can request a carefully dubbed tape from a specific master. (and even THEN they don't always get what they want.)
And! All of this gets even more complex when you speak of multi-label or things that were sub-licensed from other labels in other countries, then issued by a larger label here, and then distributed by a major. Well, chances are your single master is buried in that major's vault, but undisturbed because they no longer have anything to do with the licensing.
Well i ramble on, but i've sat glued with interest when some industry ol'-timers have shared story after story on this very subject. Fascinating stuff, and I assure you, it's NEVER as simple as i once thought it was.
Happy listening.
Mark M
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RichM921
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crapfromthepast wrote:
By the way, I found the true 45 version on The "A" List Disc 13, and I'd be willing to guess that it also appears on a TM Century disc as well. |
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Sure does. I have GoldDisc 437 which has the single version on cut #2 and the album version on cut #22. The single version also runs 3:55 on this disc.
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eriejwg
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Fascinating story, Mark!
The thing that aggravates me the most is finding the age old 'New stereo recordings by one or more of the original artists." K-Tel digitally is becoming well known for this, as has labels like Dominion etc.
GRRR!
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edtop40
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my commercial 45 issued as arista 0655 states on the label a run time of 3:46 but actually runs 3:55
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: "Sweet Dreams" - Air Supply
