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crapfromthepast
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"In The Mood" is 81 years old as of this post, so it's likely before everyone's time here on the board.
Does anyone have any strong opinions regarding CD sources of 1940s and 1950s tracks, like "In The Mood"? I use that song as an example, but I'm interested in overall opinions of CD series, labels, or mastering engineers for tracks of that vintage.
I ask because I listened critically to a few tracks on Time-Life's Your Hit Parade series, and I like what I hear. Bill Inglot's name is in the credits for the first 31 volumes of Your Hit Parade (but not the last nine). The YHP CDs in this time frame were released from 1988 to 1992.
On Your Hit Parade Vol. 22 1940 (1991), "In The Mood" sounds like a dub of a 78, without any attempt to remove ticks and pops, and no weird EQ or added noise reduction. It sounds like a record, which I find pleasing.
In contrast, on Time-Life's Big Bands Vol. 1 Glenn Miller (1991), the same song sounds muffled. Same with RCA's RCA Victor's Beginner's Guide To Jazz (1996) and RCA's Swing Greatest Hits (1996), both of which use the same analog transfer.
I'm curious to hear other people's opinions of what's out there for 1940s and 1950s-era pop. My gut instinct always veers toward Bill Inglot, and that seemed to work for this one track. Any other thoughts?
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AdvprosD
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Since virtually all of this type of music is well beyond my generation, I didn't identify with the Hit Parade series much. Time Life also had a series that was sold concurrently with
the Hit Parade series, (At least for a while), called "The Swing Era." They didn't seek out all the original recordings for this series, though a few are original, IINM.
The inner notes described where they attempted to get better sounding recordings using as many of the still performing artists as possible. This series is my preferred one
due to having better sounding recordings than was possible for for the Hit Parade series and the old 78s and shellacs, etc.
I'm not 100% sure if the content of this series on CD is a transfer of material from an earlier Time-Life series of the same name that was issued on vinyl. I do have discs
from both the vinyl and CD series, along with some of the album sized booklets that described what was on the vinyl copies.
In CD form, all of this set is made in 2CD per issue form. Glenn Miller's "In The Mood" appears on Swingtime, disc #1. I'm not sure if Glenn is actually performing this or not.
Edited by AdvprosD on 31 May 2021 at 1:10pm
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ChicagoBill
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I think I have mentioned a couple times that I am not a big fan of Various Artist CD's. If I were to look for 'In The Mood' by Glenn Miller, I would grab Glenn
Miller 'Chattanooga Choo Choo, The #1 Hits', RCA 3102-2. Probably no one on the board has a big selection of Dance Bands or Swing music of the 30's or early
40's. I do notice that the CD was digitally mastered in 1991 and encompasses the CEDAR noise reduction process which most of us think of being abhorrent, but in
the case of music that is almost a hundred years old, it really doesn't sound as bad as you think, based on the limited fidelity we're talking about. As far as
'In The Mood', the best I've heard is the ERIC compilation, 'Iconic Pop Standards In Stereo' (ERIC 13606). Mark and Walt at Eric have done such a great job not
only separating instruments into stereo, but they have livened up the fidelity. I would think that the ERIC team had to use the RCA CD's as a starting point,
but I'm not certain. I'm not sure you are asking about this one song specifically, more like music of the 30's in general. As far as the fidelity of the 30's &
early 40's, it is what it is. -Bill.
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ChicagoBill
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crapfromthepast wrote:
On Your Hit Parade Vol. 22 1940 (1991), "In The Mood" sounds like a dub of a 78, without any attempt to remove ticks and pops, and no weird EQ or added noise
reduction. It sounds like a record, which I find pleasing. |
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O.K., since my last post I actually listened to the above mentioned CD's. The RCA, which was mastered
in 1991 is probably the same digital transfer as 'Your Hit Parade Vol. 22' on Time-Life. I also listened to my 'Nipper's Greatest Hits of the 30's' (RCA-9972-2) and this
was re-mastered without the CEDAR's processing and it doesn't sound much better. Just a little echo added in. Nobody did anything to de-click them. I think there wasn't
decent software to de-click them in 1991. I purchased my first audio software from Steinberg in 1998. It was originally called 'Clean!'. Then they morphed it into 'Wave-
Lab' a few years later. So what I am saying is that anything mastered before, let's say, 1996, was not able to be de-clicked. Does that sound right? Today I am still using
Steinberg's 'Wave-Lab 10'. Anyone of us, with today's software, can make audio engineers of 1991 look pathetic. -Bill.
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NightAire
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Do we not like CEDAR? The CEDAR-cleaned recordings I've heard have blown me away with their ability to clear away surface noise but leave room noise and the like intact.
I wish I had some input to offer on this song; there certainly have been a lot of TERRIBLE releases of hits from the 30s and 40s so I can understand the desire to find the "most true to the source" copy possible.
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aaronk
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I think the CEDAR technology has probably come a long way since the early days, and of course the end result with any NR is very dependent on how heavily it's applied.
Regarding click removal, TM Century was doing this in the late '80s, so the technology was available. I don't recall if they used Sonic Solutions No Noise from the very beginning, or if they used something different the first few years between '87 and '89.
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BSharp
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As much as I can appreciate the Big Band Era, my 1970s-
era ears would rather hear a clean, note-perfect
recording of a big band song vs. an original version
dubbed from a 78-RPM record.
For that reason, it's hard to beat GRP's "In The Digital
Mood" album for all Glenn Miller songs. If I owned a
78-rpm jukebox, I'd probably feel differently about it.
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Brian W.
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ChicagoBill wrote:
| Probably no one on the board has a big selection of Dance Bands or Swing music of the 30's or early 40's. |
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I do! I have tons. I'm probably the pre-rock-era "expert" on the board, but no one ever talks about anything prior to 1955, so I never have a chance to share any knowledge.
ChicagoBill wrote:
| So what I am saying is that anything mastered before, let's say, 1996, was not able to be de-clicked. Does that sound right? |
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No, CEDAR has been in use since at least 1990. The Columbia "16 Most Requested Songs" series uses CEDAR on many of its volumes.
"In the Mood" is one that I think largely uses the same digital transfer across many different CDs. To my ears, the best I've heard is on "The Essential Glenn Miller" from Columbia Legacy this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Essential-Glenn-Miller/dp/B0009POI0O/ ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=essential+glenn+miller&qid=1622 491395&sr=8-1
It strikes a good balance between noise reduction retaining brightness and details.
My favorite Glenn Miller comp used to be a different "Essential Glenn Miller," the one from House of Hits/RCA, and while they took a lot of loving care with that set, my opinion of what "sounds good" has changed in the past 20 years, and I think they overuse the noise reduction on the House of Hits set.
Edited by Brian W. on 31 May 2021 at 1:28pm
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PopArchivist
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Brian W. wrote:
I'm probably the pre-rock-era "expert" on the board, but no one ever talks about anything prior to 1955, so I never have a chance to share any knowledge.
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That's because most people outside the Hit Parade and comp series that were put out don't have an interest in the era before 1955. When CD was first coming out those people who wanted the 1940's and early 1950's were only 35-45 years old and had disposable income for CD's.
Now that same age group is 75-85 and those kind of compilations don't see the light of day anymore on CD since they make nothing for the labels.
I'm probably the only other person on this board to collect 1900-1954 religiously and try to assemble each years listings. I expect to run into lots of problems and so-so sounding records. I even convinced Brian W to do the entire 1954 charts and not just limit it to the top 10.
As far as In The Mood goes I have many Glenn Miller comps, I have found the Essential one to be best sounding but that is my opinion. The Hit Parade Time Life put out in the late 80's are a great source for the 1940-1954 period. That's the great thing about Glenn Miller, Benny Goodman etc. Plenty of compilations and Greatest Hits to choose from. The quality transfer though could be better. Highly doubtful it will ever get the remastering treatment stuff gets now a days.
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PopArchivist
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crapfromthepast wrote:
| Does anyone have any strong opinions regarding CD sources of 1940s and 1950s tracks, like "In The Mood"? I use that song as an example, but I'm interested in overall opinions of CD series, labels, or mastering engineers for tracks of that vintage. |
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I've personally sought an original digital recording that is snap, crackle and pop free. Sadly Ron, I think anything from the 1940's, especially the early part of the decade comes from 78 transfers. Don't take this the wrong way, but to my ears the further back you go, the worse the sound. Songs like Fresni and In The Mood should be plentiful but that does not mean they sound like they were mastered great.
Sad fact is the Time Life series is the ONLY place to find some of those 1940-1954 hits. Some are lost to time. I will say that I haven't tried Itunes, which often has some of this stuff better mastered then the CD's. The labels would rather upgrade the quality on there then release CD's no one is going to buy now. Just a suggestion.
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Brian W.
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PopArchivist wrote:
| I think anything from the 1940's, especially the early part of the decade comes from 78 transfers. |
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Yeah, recording tape didn't exist for commercial use in the U.S. until 1948 (we got tape recorders from the Nazis and brought them back to the U.S.) and were not regularly used by the record companies until 1949. One of the earlier pop hits that was recorded on tape was Frankie Laine's "That Lucky Old Sun" in mid-1949. (Which is curious, since it was for Mercury Records, and Mercury continued to record primarily onto lacquer disc until 1953.)
For these reasons, most songs prior to 1950 are going to be from either 78s, original lacquer discs (which is what they were actually recorded on), or metal stamper masters that were used to press the 78s. There is not (and never was) a master tape for any record before 1949.
Edited by Brian W. on 01 June 2021 at 4:02am
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Paul Haney
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I also have a big interest in the pre-1955 music. In fact, I've been methodically adding the Cash Box regional DJ Top
10 charts to the ARSA database. There are TONS of songs there that never made the Billboard charts, and many by big
name artists too. My Mom grew up in that era and many of her all-time favorite songs are from 1950-54.
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Hykker
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PopArchivist wrote:
That's because most people outside the Hit Parade and
comp series that were put out don't have an interest
in the era before 1955. When CD was first coming out
those people who wanted the 1940's and early 1950's
were only 35-45 years old and had disposable income
for CD's.
Now that same age group is 75-85 and those kind of
compilations don't see the light of day anymore on CD
since they make nothing for the labels. |
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I'd say the audience for that era is older than
that...my mother graduated high school in 1945, which
would put her right in the middle of the "hit parade"
era, and she's 94! I'd say the 75-85 age group would
be more first generation rock & rollers.
BSharp wrote:
As much as I can appreciate the Big
Band Era, my 1970s-
era ears would rather hear a clean, note-perfect
recording of a big band song vs. an original version
dubbed from a 78-RPM record. |
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I see what you're saying, but that's like saying that
the remakes of rock era songs (Roy Orbison's "In
Dreams" collection, the Everly Brothers' re-recordings
of their Cadence hits for WB, Chubby Checker re-
recorded his hits in stereo, etc.) are "superior" to
the originals. Maybe to someone who's never heard the
originals they're OK, but to anyone who "was there"
they just sound "off".
Granted, it's a different situation with a the pre-50s
material and a lot of the originals are long gone (or
the few copies that still exist sound "well played").
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ChicagoBill
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Hmmmm, Maybe as far as my CEDARS comment, I'm living in the past (Not a bad place to live). When CD's were in their infancy, almost every kind of noise-
reduction meant a compromise in fidelity of the original recording. Kind of like the "Waring fds" product? CEDARS must've improved their product in the last
25 years. As far as my 'origins of de-clicking' software timing, I wonder why the RCA audio engineers didn't de-click 'In The Mood' for the 1991 re-master?
The CD states "ADD". 1) Were they not up to date on the latest technology? 2) They opted out of that option for some reason like "It might affect the sound".
3) They were taking a short-cut and didn't want to take the time to do the work. Or 4) RCA didn't want to spend the money on the technology. As I listen to
the rest of the Glenn Miller CD I mentioned above, "In The Mood" is the track that is in the most need of help even though it is not the oldest. The Glenn
Miller CD only covers 1939-1942, and yet you can tell the recording techniques were getting better by the time you hit 1942. I would think some of us have
heard the Robert Johnson 2-CD set or the Bessie Smith collections which are now coming up on their 100th anniversary. -Bill.
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crapfromthepast
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I myself haven't been a fan of CEDAR (used on the Steely Dan Citizen box set in 1993), NoNoise (plaguing the entire 1980s output of the TM Century library), or noise reduction in general.
But, I haven't dealt much with tracks that really need noise reduction. 1980s-era tracks are just fine as-is. 1970s-era tracks may have a little tape hiss. 1960s-era track may have even more hiss from bouncing tracks to get everything to work with the limited number of multi-track tracks that were available. In my experience, virtually everything from the 1960s onward works just fine without noise reduction.
I understand that using a 78 as source material would be orders of magnitude noisier than the tape-based material that I usually deal with. That's one of the reasons I originally asked for opinions on what works well for these old, pre-tape tracks.
I know that several Robert Johnson sets were released over the years, with varying amounts of noise reduction from set-to-set. I don't know if there was any consensus on what worked best for Robert Johnson's catalog, or whether that would even apply to the 1940s and 1950s tracks that were also lifted from records.
Thanks for the discussion - please keep sharing your thoughts on these older tracks.
Edited by crapfromthepast on 01 June 2021 at 12:50pm
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NightAire
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Re; CEDAR - CEDAR is very powerful, has lots of options, is expensive to own the full system, and I'm confident can be set to destroy the sound of any recording. I'd certainly want an expert to carefully apply CEDAR to old analog recordings. (I never knew CEDAR was used on a Steely Dan recording! Weird.)
Re; originals vs. re-recordings. The thing that really shocks me about the original performances vs. the stereo re-recordings in later decades, is how much ENERGY and PASSION there was in the original performances, while the re-recordings are technically accurate but the "magic in a bottle" of the original recordings are just gone.
For a perfect example of this, I dare you to find as good a version of "Sing, Sing, Sing" by Benny Goodman as the original release single. Future performances were good, but that first release was on FIRE. I'll put up with sound quality issues to get that kind of energy (the big band & swing of the 30s & 40s was the rock and roll of the era, I'm convinced, and this recording really "rocks!').
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AdvprosD
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crapfromthepast wrote:
I myself haven't been a fan of CEDAR (used on the Steely Dan Citizen box set in 1993), NoNoise (plaguing the entire 1980s output of the TM Century
library), or noise reduction in general. |
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I would have never guessed that the Citizen Steely Dan set had anything but some really good examples of NR. I personally own the set, (Have for several years), and
it has been my default Steely Dan collection. I have to assume at this point that there are some of us that really appreciate when the NR is applied in areas where
noise has been a distraction to the content. I got my whole indoctrination to Steely Dan from this box set.
Sure, sure everyone knows all the songs that hit the top 40 charts, but I got a real in depth appreciation for Donald and Walter along with all the session artists that
came with the collection. (And maybe some of the TM Century inventory too.)
The point being that I might have had a different perspective of all those songs, had they not had the NR applied. I guess if I really wanted to buy all the albums that the
collection covered, I can still do that and then decide if the NR was worth the effort. So, maybe it's a good thing you bring up the whole NR conversation on these albums.
It gives me something new to look for should I decide to buy the original albums. But, I probably won't do that.
Thanks Ron, I think we always need to have opinions. It definitely keeps things interesting.
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vanmeter
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In my humble opinion, the original 78s always sound better if you can find a pressing that isn't noisy. I love the music of the 30s-40s and have quite a bit of it on original shellac, vinyl reissues from the 60s and 70s, with a smattering of CDs from the past 30+ years, and generally the original discs always sound better. 78s are inherently loud with a powerful mid-range and on the right setup can be amazing—albeit not hi-fi, lots-of-treble stereo amazing, but with a midrange that can be incredibly realistic. But that said, I don't mind the lower-fi nature of the recordings in the first place (and I love mono).
Edited by vanmeter on 02 June 2021 at 8:13am
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NightAire
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I knew a guy at one point that was pulling audio off the original metal master parts (not the technical term for them, I'm sure, lol) and the sound he was getting from the masters for these old 78s was extraordinary! I was hearing high end I never knew was possible in those decades.
Sadly, I'm not sure anything ever came of the project... or if he's still with us. I'll have to do some digging and see if I still have any samples he sent me and / or if he was able to commercially release what he was capturing.
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PopArchivist
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vanmeter wrote:
| In my humble opinion, the original 78s always sound better if you can find a pressing that isn't noisy. I love the music of the 30s-40s and have quite a bit of it on original shellac, vinyl reissues from the 60s and 70s, with a smattering of CDs from the past 30+ years, and generally the original discs always sound better. 78s are inherently loud with a powerful mid-range and on the right setup can be amazing—albeit not hi-fi, lots-of-treble stereo amazing, but with a midrange that can be incredibly realistic. But that said, I don't mind the lower-fi nature of the recordings in the first place (and I love mono). |
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Your always welcome to join my project. Always looking for good source from that time period. I am not sure they make a 78 player that can produce a .wav file can they? I mean they have turntables that can do it right?
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Glenn Miller - In The Mood
