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Brian W.
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| Posted: 26 May 2006 at 3:00am | IP Logged
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The running time of the 45 versions for "Bad Girls" listed in the database range from 3:51 to 3:59. The 45 label (which I don't own) claims it runs 3:55. Eight seconds is a BIG difference in my book, and could probably use a "shorter" or "longer" note on several of these.
So what is the actual 45 running time? Better yet, since all turntables run at a slightly different speed, what is the final line on the fadeout?
Better still, if someone who owns the 45 wants to email me the last 15 seconds or so of the song, letting it play out completely, that would really help me.
Edited by Brian W. on 26 May 2006 at 3:02am
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jimct
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| Posted: 26 May 2006 at 4:33am | IP Logged
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Brian: I have an authentic Technics radio station, instant start, direct-drive turntable. 9 years ago, my radio station gave it to me as a gift; knew I'd appreciate it. We used this one on-air for 3 1/2 years - the best one we ever had. (It has unique identifying marks on it.) My chief engineer friend even bought the damn thing for us back in '79! He checked the timing for me before I joined the Board (I want to give out correct information.) He said it was already, and still, dead-on perfect, at both 33 1/3 and 45. My listed (3:55) promo (and commercial) 45 actually does run (3:55). First hint of the fade at (3:47); then a consistent, even drop until it's gone by (3:55). Pat also lists a (4:55) 12" version that he says was a "medley" with "Hot Stuff", and it "technically" is. But we played that (4:55) version on the radio, as did many others, to DEATH off of that 12" single. Modern (mid-70s +), instant-start (meaning it's "up to correct speed" (no "wowwing") the INSTANT we hit the actual or remote "START" button on it (which radio turntables need to have). That made it a TOTAL snap for us DJs to easily find and cue to that first 12" note of "Bad Girls." It was a popular airplay version, and probably why it shows up on so many CDs.
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 26 May 2006 at 5:36am | IP Logged
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Thanks, Jim. I actually enjoyed your explanation even more than I do the song!
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Jeff H.
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| Posted: 26 May 2006 at 3:20pm | IP Logged
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jimct wrote:
| Pat also lists a (4:55) 12" version that he says was a "medley" with "Hot Stuff", and it "technically" is. But we played that (4:55) version on the radio, as did many others, to DEATH off of that 12" single. Modern (mid-70s +), instant-start (meaning it's "up to correct speed" (no "wowwing") the INSTANT we hit the actual or remote "START" button on it (which radio turntables need to have). That made it a TOTAL snap for us DJs to easily find and cue to that first 12" note of "Bad Girls." It was a popular airplay version, and probably why it shows up on so many CDs. |
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The version of "Bad Girls" that runs 4:55 on the 12" is the same one that appears on the album. It's also segued together with "Hot Stuff" on the LP like it is on the 12". The only difference is that "Hot Stuff" is shorter. The LP version is edited down to 5:16 from it's 12" length of 6:45, by editing out the sax solo in the later half of the song.
But back to "Bad Girls". I always did prefer the longer version with the cold acapella ending over the 45 edit with the fade. In fact I remember being disappointed when I bought the 45, then realized my local radio station was playing the longer version.
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Grant
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| Posted: 26 May 2006 at 6:17pm | IP Logged
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A quartz-locked turntable should also be dead-on.
I have a belt-drive table and it is also spot-on in the speed department.
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jimct
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| Posted: 26 May 2006 at 8:36pm | IP Logged
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Brian W. wrote:
So what is the actual 45 running time? Better yet, since all turntables run at a slightly different speed, what is the final line on the fadeout?
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Grant, I am certain your equipment is both of quality, and gives completely accurate information. I only mentioned it due to Brian's concerns. He's hoping to exactly re-create the 45, that's all, and I just wanted him to know that my time results can help him do it, based on his post concerns, that's all. Jeez!
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 25 September 2014 at 7:09pm | IP Logged
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The thread may be 8 years old, and the song may be 35 years old, but there still may be new stuff to discover.
LP version
The LP version runs 4:54.
The full-length Donna Summer Bad Girls CD sounds absolutely fantastic. It's Casablanca 822 557-2 M-1, with a copyright date of 1979, so I'm not sure when it was released. The song runs 120.5 BPM throughout - it's a live drummer playing to a click track. The same analog transfer is used for PolyGram's multi-artist Casablanca Records Greatest Hits (1996; digitally exactly 0.5 dB louder).
I think (?) Casablanca's 2-CD Anthology also uses the same analog transfer as the original Bad Girls. This 2-CD is a really stellar overview of Donna Summer's singles, plus sounds fantastic.
The 2-CD Deluxe Edition of Bad Girls (2003) is pretty heavily compressed. Disc 1 has the original LP version, running at 120.4 BPM throughout. Disc 2 has "Bad Girls (12-Inch Single NBD 20167)", which actually sounds the same as the LP version to my ears (can anyone point out the difference?), also running at 120.4 BPM throughout, plus a terrific demo version of "Bad Girls". Excellent material on the 2-CD Deluxe Edition, but not the best mastering.
Overall, for the LP version, seek out the original Casablanca Bad Girls disc. In my opinion, it may be the very best disco full-length album ever released.
45 version
According to posts above, the 45 version runs 3:55.
The first instance of the 45 version on CD is on Warner Special Products' 2-CD Feel Good Rock (1989), where it runs 3:52 and 122.0 BPM throughout. It's a little hissy on the fadeout, so I suspect that it may not be the lowest-generation tape source. It uses the real 2-track mixdown tape for the 45, but I think it runs a bit too fast. (Can't confirm, though.) There are other songs on Feel Good Rock that also run too fast.
There are other CDs that use the same analog transfer as Feel Good Rock:- Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 9 1979 (1990; differently EQ'd digital clone)
- Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies Vol. 48 Seventies Dance Party 1979 (1990; digitally identical to other T-L disc)
- Warner Special Products' 2-CD 40 Summer Fun Hits (1993)
There's a version on TM Century's GoldDisc 7504 that has the same fade points as Feel Good Rock but runs a little slower at 121.0 BPM throughout. I didn't hear any noise reduction on this track.
For Rhino's Disco Years Vol. 3 (1992), Bill Inglot re-edited the 45 down from low-generation tapes of the LP version. It runs 3:59 here, and 120.5 BPM throughout. It tracks extremely closely to the Casablanca Bad Girls CD, so I suspect that Bad Girls was the source. It sounds great here, even with the slightly boosted high end on the Rhino discs. I was able to reverse-engineer the edits from Disco Years, and can give the edits using the timings from the Casablanca Bad Girls:
Segment 1
8 beats long, not including the opening hi-hat
Ends on a downbeat
Extends from 0:00.0-0:04.5 of 45 edit (on Disco Years)
Extends from 0:00.0-0:04.3 of LP version (on Bad Girls)
Remove the 16 beats from 0:04.3-0:12.3 of LP version (on Bad Girls).
Segment 2
8 beats long, begins and ends on a downbeat
Extends from 0:04.5-0:08.5 of 45 edit (on Disco Years)
Extends from 0:12.3-0:16.2 of LP version (on Bad Girls)
Remove the 8 beats from 0:16.2-0:20.2 of LP version (on Bad Girls).
Segment 3
16 beats long, begins on a downbeat, ends on a downbeat
on the second "toot"
Extends from 0:08.5-0:16.4 of 45 edit (on Disco Years)
Extends from 0:20.2-0:28.2 of LP version (on Bad Girls)
Remove the 8 beats from 0:28.2-0:32.1 of LP version (on Bad Girls).
Segment 4
Quite long, begins on a downbeat on word "toot"
Extends from 0:16.4 to about 3:59 of 45 edit (on Disco Years)
Extends from 0:32.1 to about 4:15 of LP version (on Bad Girls)
Fade
Begins at roughly the word "mister"
Begins around 3:45 on 45 edit (on Disco Years)
Begins around 4:00 on LP version (on Bad Girls)
Ends around 3:59 on 45 edit (on Disco Years)
Ends around 4:15 on LP version (on Bad Girls)
The edit points and the start point of the fade match the version on Feel Good Rock, but the tail of the fade is about 4 seconds longer on Disco Years, compared to Feel Good Rock.
So I'd guess that Disco Years is probably about 4 seconds longer than the true 45 edit/fade, but I don't have a vinyl dub to confirm.
There are a few other discs that use the same analog transfer as Disco Years Vol. 3:- Time-Life's Solid Gold Soul Vol. 15 1979 (1997; differently EQ'd digital clone)
- Rhino's Millennium New Disco Party (2000; digital clone, about 1.2 dB louder but with lots of clipping)
I think (?) that the Donna Summer disc Journey The Very Best Of (2003) may also use Bill Inglot's re-edit.
Other versions
The 3:05 version on On The Radio Greatest Hits is wonderful, but it was created especially for that album. On The Radio is a superb greatest-hits disc, with some great custom segues made especially for that album. Not so good if you're collecting 45 versions, though.
The 11:40 version of "Hot Stuff/Bad Girls" on Rhino's Billboard Top Dance Hits 1979 (1992) is the 12" single version of these two songs. Sounds great on this disc.
Best Bets
For the LP, try the original Casablanca Bad Girls or PolyGram's Casablanca Records Greatest Hits (1996).
For the 45, if you can live with the fade being 4 seconds longer than the true 45, go with Rhino's Disco Years Vol. 3 (1992; mastered by Bill Inglot and Ken Perry), or Time-Life's Solid Gold Soul Vol. 15 1979 (1997; mastered by Dennis Drake and tames some of the Rhino high end with excellent EQ choice)
Edited by crapfromthepast on 26 September 2014 at 7:05am
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The Hits Man
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| Posted: 27 September 2014 at 9:59pm | IP Logged
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Brian, most any direct drive turntable should run at the
correct speed.
I do have a belt drive table that just happens to also
run at the exact speed. I guess I got lucky.
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davidclark
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| Posted: 30 September 2014 at 12:41am | IP Logged
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Many thanks to crap for continuing to post his analyses of these songs. In
many cases, I have to revisit the source I currently have assigned for a song
(as in the case with "Bad Girls").
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Bad Girls -- just what is the 45 length?
