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jimct
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| Posted: 29 May 2006 at 3:04am | IP Logged
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This was originally put out by the small "Gordo" label, and then picked up nationally by Kapp. I have both promos; what's in the grooves is identical on both sides of both promos. The Gordo PART ONE has a listed time of (4:35), but actually runs (4:30). The Kapp PART ONE corrects this; listed and actual time of (4:30). The Gordo PART TWO has listed time of (3:00), but actually runs (3:04). The Kapp PART TWO, for some reason, duplicates the exact same time error, but adds the words "Short Version" to PART TWO. A wise move; my main point here is that PART TWO is the ONLY version I EVER heard on the radio back in 1970. I believe most radio people, listening to both sides, would choose PART TWO. The intro is better; the middle is better; the ending is better (ends cold); AND it's shorter. I believe the PART ONE/PART TWO characterization is misleading here, and is just a bad idea started by the Gordo promo simply duplicated on the Kapp promo. The (3:04) version is simply a KILLER remixed, probably different take, short version. Anxious to know if anybody on the Board ever heard the (4:30) version on their AM radios in 1970?
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 29 May 2006 at 6:29am | IP Logged
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I wasn't around in 1970 but I would think an instrumental song running 4:30 would likely have been considered too lengthy for AM Top 40 radio airplay back in those days. My hunch is that a sizable majority of stations played the 3:04 version like yours did, Jim.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 22 July 2007 at 11:18am | IP Logged
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According to my research, commercial 45 copies of El Chicano's "Viva Tirado" contain Part 2 on the B-side, just like on Jim's promo 45 copies. In a situation like this where it appears Part 2 received the lion's share of airplay in at least some markets, should info relevant to Part 2 be included in the database even though Part 1 is technically the official A-side? Pat, your thoughts?
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Gary Mack
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| Posted: 22 July 2007 at 3:55pm | IP Logged
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KRUX in Phoenix, where I worked at the time, played only the short version. My memory of the radio "tip sheets" of the day is that few Top 40 stations went with the much longer Part 1. The short "Part 2" was the A side, as far as radio was concerned, but somehow, Billboard listed Part 1 as the hit.
GM
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sriv94
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| Posted: 22 July 2007 at 4:29pm | IP Logged
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I'm guessing the "Part 2" version isn't on a CD somewhere, correct?
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Pat Downey
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| Posted: 23 July 2007 at 6:33pm | IP Logged
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Since the majority of contributors to this chat board insist on using Billboard as their only source of chart information why should I now tell Billboard that they were wrong on using Part 1 vs Part 2 of Viva Tirado on their chart? By the way Cash Box also listed Part 1 as the hit side.
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jimct
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| Posted: 23 July 2007 at 6:45pm | IP Logged
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Pat, isn't the oldest axiom in business is that "the customer is always right?"
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Pat Downey
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| Posted: 23 July 2007 at 7:45pm | IP Logged
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I don't really care to change the history book of rock and roll because the "old" history as it was written does not appeal to today's students.
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jimct
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| Posted: 23 July 2007 at 9:43pm | IP Logged
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Hmmm, do I detect a hint of sarcasm there, Mr. Downey? Our inquiries have NOTHING to do with "appealing to today's students" or wanting to "change the history of rock and roll!" Jeez! I'm not sending you on a wild goose chase here, Pat. I WAS around back in 1970. And I happen to have SEVERAL different 1970 airchecks, which ALL feature the short version on the tapes. Our HIGHLY respected expert Top 40 DJ on this Board, Gary Mack, has stated above that he also played the short version on KRUX/Phoenix back in 1970. And since the commercial 45s also included the short version on the other side, how did Billboard or Cashbox determine that people were choosing to buy "Viva Tirado" for the (4:30) "Part I" side? Pat, do you, or anybody else, have ANY evidence that Part I EVER got played ANYWHERE on the radio back in 1970? On your Message Board, Pat, we've found there to be numerous 60s/70s 45s that have had significant listed timing errors. Many of those have now been brought to light, for the official record. Has this been done to try to "change the history of rock and roll", or to simply "correct the original historical record" for a mistake originally made MANY years ago? Even within reference documents, you can't ALWAYS believe everything that you read, Pat. All I'm saying is that if someone has good 1970 information, justifying why "Part I" could've truly and legitimately been the "hit side", as the magazines stated back then, I'm all ears. And I would truly appreciate the help, no matter what the info indicated. That's ALL I want here. It's just that I can't seem to find a SHRED of supporting info for what the magazines chose to list back then, Pat. Earlier in 2007, I also brought up "You're The One" by Little Sister (also from 1970). As you recall, I was later proven right on that one, with "Part 2" being the actual hit side. I believe there ARE times when it is reasonable to ask a simple, honest question or two, Pat. If this angers you, I really don't know what to tell you. I make no apologies, however.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 23 July 2007 at 9:59pm | IP Logged
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Pat, I don't think anyone here is saying Billboard was "wrong" for listing Part 1 on their chart, nor is anyone suggesting that you should "change the history book of rock and roll". It's been simply brought up here that some radio stations played only Part 2 of "Viva Tirado" when the song was a hit, so isn't it traditionally your policy to mention the DJ 45 flip side of a Top 40 hit if it receives significant airplay? If you deem it inappropriate in this particular situation to add info regarding Part 2 to the database, fine. That's perfectly within your right and we'll respect you for it. But to basically accuse established and respected veteran DJs like Jim and Gary, who made their living spinning Top 40 records for many years, of somehow trying to change the history books because they're merely pointing out their radio station favored a B-side in lieu of an A-side I think is a bit unfair.
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Pat Downey
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| Posted: 24 July 2007 at 5:34am | IP Logged
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I am not saying any of the dj's that recall playing Part 2 are wrong. I am saying that since many people consider Billboard to be the bible, then Billboard has spoken (correctly or incorrectly) that Part 1 was the hit side. No one at the time this song was hit apparently complained to Billboard so they never changed their chart listing to Part 2 so how can you justify trying to change what they printed during the chart run of this song. Did Joel Whitburn change the listing in any of his publications to indicate Part 2 was the hit side?
Regardless of what is printed in Billboard or what appears in the database, all cd's that contain the song Viva Tirado are listed in the database whether it is Part 1 or Part 2. You may make your own determination as to which version suits your needs.
Edited by Pat Downey on 24 July 2007 at 5:39am
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aaronk
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| Posted: 20 December 2007 at 11:12am | IP Logged
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Upon doing a comparison between the A and B sides of the promo 45, it appears that the shorter "Part II" is an edited version of "Part I." Jim is correct, though, about "Part I" fading out while "Part II" ends cold.
Does the (4:40) version on CD end cold? Some sort of database distinction should be made here, because the "Part I" side only runs (4:29); however, I don't have any of the CDs, unfortunately, to check for myself. Also, I'm concluding, based on the above information, that the stock 45's "Part II" is the same as the promo. Please correct me if I'm drawing wrong conclusions here.
Edited by aaronk on 20 December 2007 at 12:30pm
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sriv94
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| Posted: 20 December 2007 at 3:04pm | IP Logged
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The (4:44) version I have on Rhino's Rock Instrumental Classics - Soul CD ends cold. (There's about four seconds of dead space after the track ends, so it really runs (4:40).)
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aaronk
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| Posted: 20 December 2007 at 3:33pm | IP Logged
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Thanks, Doug! I was just able to compare the (4:40) CD version with the 45, and the database will need the comment LP length for all (4:40) CD appearances, assuming that the LP runs (4:40). The (4:29) 45 is just an early fade of that (4:40) version.
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aaronk
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| Posted: 20 December 2007 at 11:42pm | IP Logged
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On "Part II" (aka the "Short Version"), the edits occur at 0:00 (intro partially removed), 0:57, 1:30, and 2:45. (Please note that these times do not reference the LP version at all.) If you're trying to re-create the edit, you'll have to remove 9.5, 33.2, 37.7, and 16.5 seconds, respectively, at the aforementioned edit points.
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edtop40
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| Posted: 15 May 2011 at 10:24am | IP Logged
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my commercial 45 which is in stereo issued as kapp 2085 states a run time on the label as 4:30 but actually runs 4:29 and if you fade the 4:40 version for 0:12 from 4:17 to 4:29 you'll effectively re-create the proper 45 version....this s/b added to the db...
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Hykker
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| Posted: 15 May 2011 at 3:36pm | IP Logged
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I just took a look at my promo copy and Part 1 has the station notations (sticker with date, colored dot indicating category & filing info), so apparently this station did play the long version. I didn't work there at the time so I can't say for sure. Most stations did stick with the short version though.
As far as Billboard's notation of Pt. 1 being the hit side, could it have been a typo at the beginning that just got perpetuated? There was no designated "plug" side on my promo single.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: El Chicano - "Viva Tirado"
