Top 40 Music on Compact Disc: The Sound Of Vinyl

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elcoleccionista
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Posted: 07 June 2006 at 10:53am \| IP Logged

I realize this is not specific to the forum's main concern, but seems to me it is a place full of quality conscious members with experienced ears, so I thought I'd post this to get some advice.

First some background (sorry, it ended up being longer than intended):

I don't love nor hate vinyl. Some vinyls sound incredibly well, some not that well. Clicks and pops are not an issue for me since most of my records play close to or as new.

But the common factor to every vinyl record seems to be degradation of sound quality as the needle moves towards the center, most noticeable from middle to end of the record (to annoying extents sometimes where there is more saturation than what I can enjoy).

I have discussed the issue with many vinyl defenders who said they didn't agree, but with a pretty sharp ear and hard head, I kept looking for a source that would discuss this.

I recently came across this paragraph on the Wikipedia page for vinyl record (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_record) and was relieved to see I'm not completely alone:

"...A further limitation of the record is that with a constant rotational speed, the quality of the sound may differ across the width of the record because the inner groove modulations are more compressed than those of the outer tracks. The result is that inner tracks have distortion that can be noticeable at higher recording levels.

7" singles were typically poorer quality for a variety of the reasons mentioned above, and in the 1970s the 12" single, played at 45 rpm, became popular for DJ use and for fans and collectors..."

As far as I know, a master tape does not have quality degradation problems across its length, nor does compact disc.

This difference in sound behaviour from start to end is in my opinion enough to leave vinyl out of question when it comes to who's more true, even though compact disc leaves some frequencies out, etc.

Here is the main reason for this endless post, I have some 7" singles that contain otherwise unavailable 45 versions of some of my all-time childhood favorites, and tried to digitally enhance them somehow.

What I have tried on the software side is Sound Forge, Cooledit, Diamond Cut. They all take care of clicks and pops, hiss, and others, but I have not found a plugin that takes care of sound degradation across the record.

What is your experience? Any comments, suggestions, as to what I could do to make these monsters sound halfway decent? (I use a Technics 1210MKII turntable, spherical Ortofon Night Club stylus). In your opinion, worth taking to a professional studio to remaster?

PS: I read about a Japanese company ELP that produced a laser turntable around 1991, but the device never made it because record companies preferred to support the compact disc (I would have done the same if sitting on their end of the table). The turntable can be ordered for a reasonable US$15,000...

I contacted them and got a demo CD showing how well it performed with warped, scratched records, but I couldn't really tell if it takes away the sound degradation problem across the record.

Has anybody by chance contacted them, or confirmed if it does eliminate the problem? Even if it did, it's way out of my budget, but I am curious.

Sanju Chiba (the President of ELP) offered me to send him two 7" singles of my choice along with a US$100, and he'd return them at his expense along with a CD containing the digitalized recording using the laser turntable.

Since it was a bit too much for me just to satisfy my curiosity (I live in Argentina and that is 300 Argentine Pesos...) I left it there.

Here is the company's website if you are interested:

http://www.elpj.com/

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Brian W.
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Posted: 07 June 2006 at 2:08pm \| IP Logged

You think $15,000 US is reasonable? Johann, will you be my best friend? :D

But regarding the sound degrading somewhat towards the end of a record, I do recall Streisand saying when The Broadway Album came out back in '84 that Columbia didn't want to use "Somewhere" as a closing track because it was hard to duplicate that kind of dynamic range that close to the end of a side. She remarked how disappointed she was when she heard the vinyl test pressing because the sound was so squashed on that song.

So when they mastered the CD, she took all the compression off "Somewhere" and boosted the volume way up. "An overreaction, perhaps, but at least I got it back to sounding the way it was supposed to sound," she said.

vanmeter
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Posted: 07 June 2006 at 2:54pm \| IP Logged

I suspect what you're hearing is pinch effect distortion; all cartridges that I have tried that were not microline or equivalent styli exhibit some high frequency loss near the label. But of the two microlines I have, one eats up styrene 45s sometimes, and the other is pretty safe, so they're harder to deal with using on 45s.

elcoleccionista
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Posted: 07 June 2006 at 4:44pm \| IP Logged

Brian W. wrote:

You think $15,000 US is reasonable? Johann, will you be my best friend? :D

I don't, had hoped the sentence and its punctuation would convey irony ; )

That's one interesting story Brian!

See, even Barbra noticed : p

elcoleccionista
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Posted: 07 June 2006 at 5:01pm \| IP Logged

vanmeter wrote:

Thanks for your reply. Interesting, I only knew of spherical and elliptical styli.

Do you think if I get a microline, this problem will be reduced?

I read that elliptical has slightly better frequency response than spherical, but not enough to make me go out and shell out more money to test if it's true to my ears, I already payed about US$120 for that Ortofon Night Club set years ago.

Also, how can I tell which vinyl 45's are made of styrene?

Is that the material which was used in the early days of vinyl and is rather hard?

aaronk
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Posted: 07 June 2006 at 8:58pm \| IP Logged

I've looked into this situation myself, knowing about as much as you know about turntables and cartridges. Here's what I've concluded, although it's not necessarily fact...

1) Playing the same record on two different styli can produce drastically different results. I've done some vinyl transfers on my own Technics 1200 using an Ortofon Concorde cartridge. I transfered the same records on my friend's Technics 1200, but with a different cartridge (whatever he uses), and the result was better than on mine.

2) 45 rpm 12" records have the best sound by far...HOWEVER, I have some 12" singles that have bad "inner groove" distortion, and others where it's very minimal. I believe it comes down to the quality of the vinyl and how many times the vinyl has been played. The needle wears the inner groove much worse than the outer because of the angle that the tonearm is hitting the groove. Also, what vanmeter has said about "pinch distortion" is true. The inner groove is passing by the needle at a much slower rate than at the outside.

3) A friend of a friend owns one of those laser turntables, and supposedly, it doesn't really make your record sound that much better than just playing it on a regular turntable. For one, the record has to be professionally vaccuumed before playing it on the laser turntable because every single particle of dirt will show up as a "click" in the audio. Any damage to the groove will also cause "pops" in the audio. Again, this is all hearsay, but I thought I'd pass it on.

elcoleccionista
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 4:32am \| IP Logged

Aaron, thanks for the post. Interesting data about that laser turntable, I'm sure I'd be very disappointed by the least flaw in performance at US$15,000!

To close off, here is a link to the audio hardware section of a forum I basically pasted my post at. Some interesting replies with facts and thoughts about vinyl and its playback came from its members:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?p=1839609#p ost1839609

elcoleccionista
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Posted: 30 October 2006 at 7:55pm \| IP Logged

vanmeter wrote:

Vanmeter, all the complaints I had made about some of the vinyl playback issues I had written about on this post are pretty much gone, since yesterday I have an Audio Technica AT440MLa microline cartridge hooked up to my 1210 MK2, and it simply blew me away.

A fellow memeber from the Steve Hoffman forum who coincidentally happens to live not only in Buenos Aires as I do, but in my neighboorhood, saw my post crying for help to set the Audio Technica correctly. He sent me a private message, offered his help, refused to charge me, and did a fine job at tuning it to avoid mistracking, etc. His appearance was a blessing. The Lord works in mysterious ways sometimes : P

With this AT cartridge, there is basically no inner groove distortion, on neither 7" or 12" singles, nor LP's. At most what I notice is a very slight loss of high frequencies if you compare start and end of the record, but it is minimal, and I know it is inherent to vinyl playback with a diagonal system as most turntables are, as opposed as how the record is cut, paralell to the groove.

And anyway what ate my nerves with the Ortofon spherical was the increasing distortion towards the end.

Another huge annoyance of the past setup, sibilance, is also gone on all LP's and 12" singles, a little only on some 7" singles, which before were unbearable to listen to my ears. Most 12" records can pass as compact disc recordings, incredible in absence of sibilance specifically, which can easily give away a vinyl recording.

Now, the cartridge did eat away one styrene 7" single that I didn't really care for, that is why I tried that one (Tim Finn's "How'm I Gonna Sleep", I love the song, but I have it on CD already).

Since you mention you have two microline styli, which ones do you have, and which one does not eat your styrenes?

aaronk
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Posted: 30 October 2006 at 8:16pm \| IP Logged

Johann! Thanks for the valuable info! I've been searching around for a good stylus and cartridge to upgrade my Ortofon Concorde, which also has a spherical stylus.

Brian W.
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Posted: 30 October 2006 at 8:58pm \| IP Logged

Yes, by all means, Aaron, upgrade, upgrade! :D

elcoleccionista
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Posted: 30 October 2006 at 9:59pm \| IP Logged

My pleasure Aaron!

Watch out with the styrene 45's though, the guy who set it up for me and I were curious about the comments about it on the SH forum, and we had a laugh when it basically ate the beginning of the Tim Finn 7" single, it was amazing how it basically changed the color of the grooves it played, and the hiss it left on them.

But I myself would not be have been that joyful if I had played any of my Madonna US promo styrene 45's. : P

I believe I only have styrenes by her, a couple Janet Jackson and Cyndi Lauper, the rest of my mini 7" singles collection are vinyl.

I can then guarantee an absolute new listening experience since you are also coming from a spherical Ortofon Concorde. Channel separation, clearer distinction of each sound itself, overall soundstage, beats it by far my friend.

And to my ear, it makes the sound quality gap between a 12" and a 7" vinyl a lot narrower, too. The difference was much more evident with the Concorde.

As a reference, I played a Paula Abdul "Cold Hearted" promo 45, and as I know you remember it has a lot of high frequencies, especially with the word "SSSnake".

Plays it beautifully for a 45, I could not listen to it with the Ortofon, it wrecked my ears and nerves ; )

I'm keeping the Ortofon anyway, if nothing else to play the styrenes (seldom as I do), or just for how cool it looks ; )

I say, go for the AT without hesitance : )

aaronk
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Posted: 30 October 2006 at 10:07pm \| IP Logged

I just sent you a PM, Johann. I think I'm going to go for it. Thanks for the encouragement, Brian!

vanmeter
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Posted: 31 October 2006 at 5:52am \| IP Logged

elcoleccionista wrote:

Since you mention you have two microline styli, which ones do you have, and which one does not eat your styrenes?

The only one I have had that seemed to be safe on 99% of styrene was the Shure V15-VMR. Styli for this have started disappearing over the last year, so I'm guessing it'd be a tough one to find.

The other one I have is a 440ML (not MLa).

Edited by vanmeter on 31 October 2006 at 5:52am

elcoleccionista
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Posted: 31 October 2006 at 6:31am \| IP Logged

Thanks Vanmeter, I have heard about that Shure model, audiophiles kept on and on about which one is better on the SH forum, but after all the reading, most seemed to lean towards the AT, so I went that way, plus the fact you mention that was also an issue, the fact the Shure has been discontinued.

aaronk
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Posted: 10 November 2006 at 9:40pm \| IP Logged

I just received and set up my AT-440MLa cartridge and stylus, and it sounds spectacular! I'm very grateful to Johann for suggesting it.

Now, I also dared to play a styrene 45 with it, but before doing so, I lowered the tracking weight from 1.8g to 1.4g, and I had no trouble at all. I tried about a half dozen styrene 45s, and they all played great.

Now, my other question, for anyone who owns a Technics 1200MK2 turntable, is how do you adjust the azimuth? Everything sounds great, but I'm getting about 2 to 3 dB lower volume in the left channel.

KentT
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Posted: 17 July 2009 at 2:02pm \| IP Logged

There's an alignment gauge which is packed with the turntable which works well. It can be had from KABUSA cheap if yours is missing. Also tonearm height can make a difference in sonics. Stylus being slightly tail down improves sonics. The microline,MicroRidge, Shibata, and StereoHedron styli make a difference. Less loss of quality on the inner grooves.

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Steve Sharp
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Posted: 20 July 2009 at 8:20pm \| IP Logged

How can I tell if any given 45 is styrene?

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