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Paul C
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| Posted: 12 May 2007 at 7:33am | IP Logged
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I'm hoping that someone can clear up a matter regarding Mitchell Torok's 'Caribbean', and that is whether the 1953 and 1959 releases are the same recording.
The song was initially a #1 country hit in 1953 on the Abbott label credited to "Mitchell Torok & The Louisiana Hayride Band". It did not become a pop hit until the 1959 release on the Guyden label which was credited to simply "Mitchell Torok". I have the 1959 Guyden 45 but do not have a 1953 Abbott 45 or 78.
Joel Whitburn seems to have changed his mind over the years as to whether the two releases are the same or different recordings. In Top Pop Singles 1955-1986, he states the two are the same version, but in the sixth edition of Top 40 Hits (published in 1996), he states "original version by Torok hit #1 on the Country charts in 1953 on Abbott 140", thereby implying that the two releases are different recordings.
The song did not appear on a domestic CD until last year's Eric/Hit Parade release Fabulous 50s Crooners Sing Their Hard To Find Hits. This CD has confused me even more. The track list states it contains the 1953 version and credits the song to "Mitchell Torok & The Louisiana Hayride Band" and the booklet states that the 1959 release is a re-recording. But the version on the CD is definitely the same as my 1959 Guyden 45, which means that the current database information is (perhaps inadvertently) correct.
Does anyone have a 1953 Abbott 45/78 to clear up whether the 1953 Abbott and 1959 Guyden releases are in fact the same or different recordings?
(Side note: Until the release of the Eric/Hit Parade CD, the last time the song was available in the U.S. was in the 1980s on a Jamie/Guyden re-issue 45. However, this re-issue 45 has handclap overdubs not on the 1959 Guyden 45.)
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PaulEschen
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| Posted: 13 May 2007 at 7:34am | IP Logged
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I compared the two 45s of "Caribbean" and it's my belief it's the same
take, but brightened up on the Guyden version with a little reverb; it's
certainly a much better sounding song on the latter version. According to
the notes from Mitchell Torok - Mexican Joe In The Caribbean (Bear
Family BCD 15 906 DI), the owner of Abbott Records, Fabor Robison, sold
much of the old Abbott catalog to Jamie/Guyden records, and they re-
issued the song.
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Paul C
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| Posted: 13 May 2007 at 4:25pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for the info, Paul.
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Pat Downey
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| Posted: 15 May 2007 at 9:12pm | IP Logged
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The version that appears on the Hit Parade cd is the 1953 version that appeared on the Abbott label and is not the same vocal take or instrumental take that appears on the pop hit from 1959 on the Guyden label. Also the speed of the Guyden version is much faster so unfortunately this is another 45 that has not yet appeared on cd in the U.S. in its pop hit incarnation.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 15 May 2007 at 9:28pm | IP Logged
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Drat... Eric/Hit Parade label has a stellar reputation for issuing correct hit versions on all their CD compilations, but I think I know why they went with the 1953 non-hit version on the Fabulous 50s Crooners Sing Their Hard To Find Hits. Recordings older than 50 years old become part of the public domain in Canada and Europe and therefore no longer involve licensing restrictions. Therefore, the 1953 version would fall under the public domain category, while the hit 1959 version is still copyrighted and must be officially licensed to appear on a CD compilation.
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Robert
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| Posted: 19 October 2009 at 7:10pm | IP Logged
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I don't have the Abbott release, but I can tell you there are two different Guyden 45 issues of this song. They are both numbered GUYDEN 2018 with MT-1 printed above the time and the production credit on the right hand side; however there are different deadwax numbers.
The one I remember as the 1959 version has the deadwax #MT-1B. This version has a shorter intro and does not contain handclaps and bongos. Or maybe I should say that it does, but they are very low in the background. Also, Pat is correct. It is close, but not the same take as the Eric/Hit Parade version (e.g. at :39 the line "...miles away" is just one difference). I agree that it was an alternate take from the same session. It's just too close not to be.
The other pressing has deadwax #MT-1 with 126-A scratched out. It has a longer intro than the other 45 and it matches the Eric/HP CD with one exception. There are prominent bongos and handclaps. (Okay 2 exceptions) The vocal and the backing match the CD version.
So Pat would be correct in listing the ERIC/HP version as NOT the 1959 version. And that the 1959 version is not available on domestic CD. However, is the ERIC version the 1953 version or is it the other 1959 version without the overdubs. And what about the difference between two 45's neither of which match the CD version. Which is the real 1953 version? The one with or without the bongos and handclaps? And where did the other 45 come from? Might there be some backing tracks floating around somewhere?
Incidentally, after sampling the Bear Family CD "Mexican Joe In The Caribbean" I believe I am correct in saying that the version marked "Alternate take" is indeed the 1959 version. The intro wasn't on the clip and it might have the longer intro - which is easily edited down.
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Santi Paradoa
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| Posted: 21 October 2009 at 7:08pm | IP Logged
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The only version I have of this song on cd is from the 1995 canadian disc "Treasured Tunes" on Stardust CD-1015. In the 90s they released several volumes in their series of hard to find 50s and 60s tracks with this track running 2:25.
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satchdr
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| Posted: 21 October 2009 at 9:50pm | IP Logged
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Folks, this tune has always intrigued me and I have what is apparently the 1959 version on both a Jamie Golden Hits 45 (J 912) (deadwax is "JAMIE 912-B") and on "The Jamie/Guyden Story" Bear Family German import 2CD set (LC 5197). I believe both these versions are identical except the 45 has a longer intro. The 45 is also an absolutely horrible recording and the phasing is so bad it has the "doppler effect" throughout.
After reading the recent postings, I've ordered a copy of the original Abbott 45 and the Eric/HIt Parade Fabulous 50s Crooners CD. Once they arrive, I'll do a comparison and report to y'all. Dan
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Gary Mack
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| Posted: 23 October 2009 at 6:55am | IP Logged
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My yellow/black label 1959 Guyden 45 has different information in the dead wax: MT 1B-RE. The songwriter is credited to Mitchell Torok and the publisher is American Music, Inc. Run time is just under 2:25 and yes, it's the fast version.
GM
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 24 October 2009 at 9:26pm | IP Logged
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My Guyden 45 also has "MT 1B-RE" in the dead wax, but just to add to the confusion, the label itself states "45-MT-1A" on the left side.
The other info matches Gary's description; the intro time is (:02.8) and the total run time is (2:23).
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satchdr
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| Posted: 27 October 2009 at 8:49am | IP Logged
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Pat's absolutely correct that the Eric/Hit Parade CD version and the Abbott 45 version are the same version (but you need to increase the speed on the Eric CD 1.3% in order to get them to be the same speed/length.) In addition, the Jamie Golden Hits 45 is the same version as the Eric and Abbott versions. The Eric CD version is cleaned up considerably so you can hear the high end much better. I don't think there are any overdubs.
I have now purchased the two Guyden 45s mentioned above to compare to the Jamie/Guyden Story import CD (the latter of which is clearly, as Pat stated, a different vocal take with some different instrumentation.) I'll report further when I get the two Guyden 45s.
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Paul C
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| Posted: 29 October 2009 at 1:41pm | IP Logged
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My Guyden 45 has the deadwax "MT 1 -ARE" (with the 'RE' slightly elevated) and does not match the description of either of Robert's Guyden 45s. It matches Robert's description of his "MT-1" 45 except that it does NOT have the bongos/handclaps overdubs. It matches satchdr's description of his Abbott 45; that is, it is the Eric/Hit Parade CD version but faster.
This means that there are at least THREE different Guyden 45 versions:
- the same as the Abbott 45. [This is the version on the Eric/Hit Parade CD Fabulous 50s Crooners Sing Their Hard To Find Hits, except that it is slower on the CD. It appears at the correct speed on the Canadian CD that Santi Paradoa mentioned, Treasured Tunes, but the track is mastered from vinyl.]
- the same take as the Abbott 45 but with additional overdubs.
- a different take from the 1953 Abbott session. [I have this version on the ACE UK CD, The Golden Age Of American Popular Music: The Country Hits, which incorrectly describes it as the 1953 Abbott version.]
To make things even more complicated, my Jamie/Guyden re-issue 45 has the same deadwax info as satchdr's re-issue 45, but it DOES have the overdubs.
It now makes sense why so many usually reliable sources (Joel Whitburn, Eric/Hit Parade, ACE UK) seemed confused as to whether the 1959 Guyden release was the same as the 1953 Abbott release. Some 1959 Guyden pressings were the same and some were not.
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satchdr
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| Posted: 02 November 2009 at 11:25pm | IP Logged
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More information:
One of the two Guyden Records 45s arrived today. It appears to be the same as the one described by Gary Mack and Yah Shure, has the "MT 1B-RE" deadwax but (to compound the difference among the various Guyden 45s described) the deadwax also contains the triangle symbol followed by "30410". It also has the "American Music Inc." credit and "(45-MT-1A)" under it on the left side of the label.
This version is identical to the one found on "The Jamie-Guyden Story" Bear Family import CD I mentioned above but the CD has to be sped up 1.1% in order to match the speed of this 45 version which, as Gary stated, runs fast. It has a time of just over 2:24.
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Paul C
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| Posted: 27 March 2012 at 2:30pm | IP Logged
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Pat, the database currently states that the only domestic CD featuring this song contains the 1953 version and not the 1959 version. We were able to conclude from the various contributions to this thread that some 1959 Guyden pressings are the same take as the 1953 Abbott pressings and some are a different take. My 1959 Guyden 45 is definitely the same version and length as the version on the lone database-listed CD.
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edtop40
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| Posted: 18 February 2014 at 10:25am | IP Logged
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my commercial 45 issued as guyden 2018 has 'MT-1' above
'Time 2:30' on the label......the actual run time is
2:28...i downloaded the version from the cd 'the mitchell
torok collection: 1949-1960' issued on the acrobat label
and they sound identical to me......
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Randypny
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| Posted: 15 August 2014 at 12:17pm | IP Logged
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So, based on the above, is it safe to draw the following conclusions?:
a) the version of "Caribbean" on the Hit Parade CD matches (except for the speed) the Abbott 45 and some pressings of the Guyden 45
b) the version on the Bear Family Jamie/Guyden Story CD matches the alternate take found on other pressings of the Guyden 45
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smvceo
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| Posted: 13 September 2014 at 8:13am | IP Logged
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My understanding of the two version of "Caribbean" is that both version were recorded during the same 1953 session, and that the Jamie/Guyden version is an alternate take, one of which has handclaps overdubbed. This is what we discovered during our research on which version to release. Since both the Abbott and Guyden issues charted, we went with the "harder to find" recording.
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Topic: Mitchell Torok ’Caribbean’ - 1953 & 1959
