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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 24 May 2005 at 11:34am | IP Logged
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Pat,
The version of "It's a Miracle" you refer to as "LP version faded :16 early" is not accurate. There are 3 different mixes of the song -- one can be found on the 45, another on the LP, and a third "alternate" mix (missing horns) on the "Ultimate Manilow" CD. There are many differences between the 45 and LP mixes, but one very obvious one regards the background vocals in the opening line:
"You wouldn't believe where I've been (OOH HOO HOO)"
The "OOH HOO HOO" background vocals are on the 45 mix but not the LP mix. If you check the "Barry Manilow II" LP or CD, neither have those background vocals. (There are many other differences, too, like a bomb/explosion sound at the beginning of the bridge, but for the sake of this argument, it's easier just to cite one difference.)
So the version on "The Essential" and "Greatest Hits" cannot be a faded version of the LP version since these recordings do have the "OOH HOO HOO" vocals. By "Greatest Hits", I mean the album with the beige album cover (1979), not "Greatest Hits Vol. 1" which came out in 1989 as part of a 3-volume series.
Pat, we had a discussion about this song a while before the chat board was set up (and before "Essential" was released.) And we had a disagreement on the version of "It's a Miracle" on "Greatest Hits", as I recall.
This makes me think you may have a different "Barry Manilow II" LP than what I have, or a different "Greatest Hits" CD than what I have. Or maybe even a different 45.
So can people verify that the actual 45, "Essential" CD and "Greatest Hits" CD have the "ooh hoo hoo" background vocal in the opening line and that the "II" LP and CD do not? I have all 5 items in question so I am really trying to determine if different versions of the LP, 45 or CD are floating around.
The version on "Essential" and "Greatest Hits" is the same mix as the 45, incidentally. It's not the LP mix. It happens to be longer than the 45. In fact, if you took this mix and did an edit, you would have the 45 -- mix, edit and all. So I think I would call this version "Extended version of the 45 mix."
Edited by EdisonLite on 24 May 2005 at 10:13pm
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JMD1961
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| Posted: 24 May 2005 at 2:34pm | IP Logged
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I don't have access to either anymore, but I do believe two different versions of the 1979 Greatest Hits exist.
The reason I believe this is that I had a copy and so did a friend. On my copy, "Daybreak" was the studio version, while on his, it was the live hit version.
As I said, both of these CD's are long gone now, so I can't do a side by side comparison on "It's A Miracle" for you, but I hope this information was at least a small help to you.
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| Posted: 24 May 2005 at 8:27pm | IP Logged
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I agree with you on all points except one. Because of the longer instrumental introduction, I must call the version found on "Essential" and "Greatest Hits" (neither the 45 or LP version).
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sriv94
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| Posted: 17 September 2005 at 9:55am | IP Logged
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EdisonLite wrote:
The version on "Essential" and "Greatest Hits" is the same mix as the 45, incidentally. It's not the LP mix. It happens to be longer than the 45. In fact, if you took this mix and did an edit, you would have the 45 -- mix, edit and all. So I think I would call this version "Extended version of the 45 mix."
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I'm with Pat on this one, but for a different reason. You actually have to do two edits on that mix to get the 45. Here they are:
1. Edit the opening instrumental passage from about 7.5 seconds in to about 15 seconds in.
2. At the point after Manilow sings "Now you're here and I'm feelin' so good and baby they'll be. . ." edit the "dancing in the street" from the 2:14 mark to the one at about 2:34.
That gives you a song that runs 3:16, which give or take a second is the 45 length.
Doug
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 17 September 2005 at 12:10pm | IP Logged
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Yes, that's all correct. I guess calling the version on "Essential" the extended 45 mix is wrong in the sense that it is not simply longer on the tail end. Amongst my friends, we refer to this version this way because you can extract the exact 45 version from the version on "Essential" (and older "Greatest Hits" CDs). It's as if they took the original tapes for the LP version, added new instruments, remixed the new version, and got this new mix which matches in length the original LP version. They then took this version and did 2 edits to create the 45 version. Since the 45 version has never been on CD, the only way to get it on CD is to edit this longer version, from which the 45 editing came from. Is there a more precise term to refer to this version to be clearer as to what it is -- I don't mean in terms of Pat's notation, which for his book should be called "neither the 45 or LP version". But "alternate mix" or "alternate version" is so general, I just wonder if there's a clearer way to label this version since it's the same mix as the 45 version, only unedited. "Extended version of the 45 mix" isn't correct because that implies it just goes on LONGER than the 45, right?
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 17 September 2005 at 2:46pm | IP Logged
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Yeah, I edited the version on "Essential" myself as well. It's quite an easy edit with no fade to duplicate. I think editing a fade to exactly match a 45 is harder than anything.
I suppose you could call the "Essential" version "LP length 45 mix."
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 20 September 2005 at 9:30am | IP Logged
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How about "unedited 45 mix" or "unabridged 45 mix"?
And I totally agree with you, Brian.... Trying to fade out a CD to exactly match the ending of a 45 is the most tedious and time consuming aspect of replicating a single version from CD!
Edited by Todd Ireland on 20 September 2005 at 9:30am
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aaronk
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| Posted: 20 September 2005 at 11:54am | IP Logged
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Todd Ireland wrote:
| How about "unedited 45 mix" or "unabridged 45 mix"? |
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This would be confusing to me if I read it, and so would "LP length 45 mix." My vote for situations like these is "neither" or "remixed" or something to that effect.
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MMathews
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| Posted: 20 September 2005 at 1:00pm | IP Logged
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Hi All!
Happy to chime in here and confuse matters further. :-)
I recently was chatting with EdisonLite about this track since it was his info about it that helped me identify all the different versions.
Before this, I was unaware that the actual 45 "MIX" (even tho unedited) was available on a U.S. CD. Since then I did the above mentioned edit to create the 45.
In my opinion, it would be helpful if my book said "45 Mix, but longer" or "neither the 45 or LP version, but same mix as 45".
If it only says "remixed" I will assume it is not the hit version, remixed at a later time. And if it only says "neither..." I will also assume it brings me no closer to having the "Hit" mix.
One extra note; while working on the track I synched up all the different versions to note the differences.
The mix on "Greatest Hits Vol One" listed as "alternate" - "alternate mix" would be accurate, but in oldies-collector terms we'd refer to it as an "underdub" as it is a previously unreleased incomplete mix, missing overdubs (horns, and some vocals) that were on the LP version. But it is the same take, just unfinished.
Happy listening, all.
-Mark M
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aaronk
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| Posted: 20 September 2005 at 6:56pm | IP Logged
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I agree with Mark M. His suggestion makes more sense.
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BillyDee203
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| Posted: 11 June 2006 at 2:09pm | IP Logged
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A related question would be, does this version still sport the narrow stereo
imaging of the original single issue?
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sriv94
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| Posted: 11 June 2006 at 2:17pm | IP Logged
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MMathews wrote:
The mix on "Greatest Hits Vol One" listed as "alternate" - "alternate mix" would be accurate, but in oldies-collector terms we'd refer to it as an "underdub" as it is a previously unreleased incomplete mix, missing overdubs (horns, and some vocals) that were on the LP version. But it is the same take, just unfinished.
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Coulda fooled me. Really. Barry Manilow's vocal on that version in certain parts sounds drastically different. I'm thinking specifically about the part on the single where Manilow goes into a bit of a falsetto on the "dancing in the stre-ee-eee-eee-eeet" line leading into the instrumental break (don't remember if it's on the LP version as well). He doesn't come close to doing that on the underdub take (in fact, much of the vocals leading up to that are different as well).
Maybe I just don't understand the process of overdubbing (or underdubbing), but it seems to me that the differences are too drastic.
Edited by sriv94 on 11 June 2006 at 5:15pm
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Grant
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| Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:47pm | IP Logged
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I was able to easily create the 45 version by editing the "Essential" version in two places, one on the intro, and one near the bridge.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 07 September 2010 at 7:17pm | IP Logged
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Comparing the various versions I have...
The Essential Barry Manilow has the 45 mix, which can be easily edited down to the true 45 version. It's a pretty narrow stereo mix.
The Complete Collection And The Some box has the same vocal take as the 45, but is missing some of the overdubs. I assume this is the LP mix? It's also pretty narrow stereo.
Greatest Hits Vol. 1 (10-track CD released in 1989) has the "underdone" version, mixed with a similar instrumentation to the LP mix but with the lackluster vocal take. It seems like a wider mix than the other mixes - was this a new mix done for the GH CD, but using the wrong vocal take?
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 08 September 2010 at 8:08am | IP Logged
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BillyDee203 wrote:
A related question would be, does this version still sport the narrow stereo
imaging of the original single issue? |
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The answer is Yes, and just for clarity, Billy was referring to the long version of the 45 mix (the one with the "ooh hoo hoo" background vocals after line 1, but the longer intro and unedited chorus #2). Both the "45 mix" and the "45 mix but longer in the intro and Chorus #2) are the same narrow stereo (virtually mono), and no version of this mix has ever been released that is wide stereo. Luckily, M Mathews did some studio trickery and managed to expand the near-mono 45 mix and create a quite-wide stereo version of the 45 mix, which I have (though it's not as wide as the LP mix, in case anyone's going to ask that.)
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MMathews
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| Posted: 10 September 2010 at 6:06pm | IP Logged
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Hi again,
Haven't sen this thread in years... i left Doug's question unanswered above about the overdubbing.
It's been years since i synched the 2 versions to check but what i recall is most of the "under-done" version was the same take, they just kept adding elements to it to get the LP version we know.
This "under-dubbed" version was likely pulled in error because of how it was labeled. It may have been worded in such a way they thought it was simply an earlier generation tape with better sound for cd release.
Anyway, after the LP was released, i guess they again took that master back to another studio and added still more elements to create the hit mix, from which the 45 was edited.
This would include Barry adding his extra "dancing in the street" part, double tracked as well.
To my ears, it sounds like they wanted to use whatever board or studio they had used in the past to get that very specific "big tunnel" reverb sound, but the elements processed with it are in mono. The remaining backing instruments are mixed left and right but very low.
And yes i did make a somewhat-expanded stereo mix of this, but i'll tell ya, i don't even mind they sacrificed some of the stereo to make this 45 mix. Because the extra production and mixing they did really brought this song to life!
-MM
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sriv94
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| Posted: 14 September 2010 at 9:43am | IP Logged
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You're forgiven, Mark. :)
Fair to say that would seem to be where the 1978 Greatest Hits LP version came from?
Of course, after all these years, isn't it about time Arista/BMG actually put the correct 45 version of "It's A Miracle" on a CD somewhere (like they finally did for "Could It Be Magic")?
Edited by sriv94 on 14 September 2010 at 9:46am
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KentT
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| Posted: 28 September 2010 at 12:31pm | IP Logged
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It's about time BMG/Arista released a complete singles CD set from the correct 45 single masters. Too many of Barry's best work in singles versions are unavailable on CD. And many of these 45 singles are getting hard to find nice pressings of in well cared for condition.
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The Hits Man
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| Posted: 28 September 2010 at 12:52pm | IP Logged
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Legacy/BMG finally issued the 45 version of "Could It be
magic" after not being available on CD since the mid-80s.
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sriv94
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| Posted: 28 September 2010 at 6:29pm | IP Logged
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The Hits Man wrote:
| Legacy/BMG finally issued the 45 version of "Could It be magic" after not being available on CD since the mid-80s. |
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Yes, they did that a while ago on the Essential CD. Now we just need them to do that for "It's A Miracle" and "The Old Songs" ("Copacabana" and "Mandy" are fairly common or not as hard to find, and "I Write The Songs" is just an early fade--I think most of his other major hits the 45 and LP versions are the same).
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: "It’s a Miracle" Barry Manilow
