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jimct
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| Posted: 07 April 2008 at 12:44pm | IP Logged
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My commercial 45 has a listed time of (3:25), but an actual time of (3:30).
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 07 April 2008 at 5:43pm | IP Logged
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Jim, the stereo DJ 45 also lists 3:25, but runs 3:30. Unlike the commercial 45, this one is in glorious <cough, cough> CSG stereo. I wonder if Richard might consider a The Carpenters: The CSG Mixes project ;) ;)
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edtop40
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| Posted: 08 April 2008 at 11:02am | IP Logged
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what does "CSG" stand for?
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jimct
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| Posted: 08 April 2008 at 11:23am | IP Logged
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Ed, my friend, I'm no audiophile, but CSG stood for "Compatible Stereo Generator," and was known in audio circles as the "Haeco-CSG" process. A&M, Atlantic & WB were the primary "record label clients" of this processing, employed from the late 60's, and on through much of the early-to-mid 70's. As stereo stock 45s began to be made, many kids still had those cheap, portable mono turntables. The thinking here was to try to make these "new" stereo 45s "compatible for both mono & stereo turntables", by running the master audio through this CSG process. This was done to try to save the record labels the money, time & trouble that was required to produce a specific mono master for a 45, while still supposedly providing the "full range of sound" on the kids' cheap record players. It was roundly criticized by most audiophiles, who thought the music's sound clearly became distorted/altered going through the CSG audio process. CSG processing, thankfully, has long ago been abandoned. And audiophiles, please, feel free to jump in here - my info here is almost certainly incomplete!
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 08 April 2008 at 1:24pm | IP Logged
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Here's another consideration: When a stereo record was heard in mono, especially on the AM top-40 stations or on mono FM radios in the late '60s-early '70s, the center channel material was louder than the sounds that were hard left or right in the stereo mix. The CSG process was an attempt to reduce the center, bringing it in balance with the hard left/right when heard in mono. In theory, this seemed like a good idea, but in reality, while the mono playback sounded okay, the stereo playback did not sound very good.
By 1973-76, A & M had pretty much relegated CSG to the stereo side of DJ 45s. If you were to hold a stock and promo 45 of "I Need To Be In Love" next to each other, you'd notice a huge difference in the groove pattern, with the CSG-processed DJ looking much "busier" than the stock copy. In listening to both in stereo, the stock 45 would have a much fuller, more natural-sounding stereo mix than the CSG stereo.
I suppose that an argument could be made that if a top-40 hit was released in promo form as a CSG-processed stereo 45, that should be considered to be the "radio version" mix, but I'm not going down that road.
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Hykker
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| Posted: 08 April 2008 at 4:53pm | IP Logged
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Yah Shure wrote:
By 1973-76, A & M had pretty much relegated CSG to the stereo side of DJ 45s. In listening to both in stereo, the stock 45 would have a much fuller, more natural-sounding stereo mix than the CSG stereo.
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That doesn't make much sense. You'd think AM stations could just play the mono side, and not have to worry about summing errors. By the early 70s many AM stations had installed stereo cartridges in their turntables & summed them to mono, supposedly minimizing the effect.
I don't think I have any A&M 45s in both promo and stock (most likely one or the other), but I'll have to give a listen.
I'm one who's usually pretty sensitive to processing artifacts, but I can't say I ever noticed anything bad-sounding about CSG-processed records, the one exception that comes to mind being "See" by the Rascals, which I always attributed to the song just being mixed that way intentionally.
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Roscoe
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| Posted: 08 April 2008 at 6:32pm | IP Logged
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Did the 45 of "Please Mr. Postman" use CSG? I believe it was a different mix than the LP version, but that 45 always had a strange, lo-fi sound, especially for a mid-70s recording. The LP version does not have that lo-fi sound.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 08 April 2008 at 7:52pm | IP Logged
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Hykker, AM stations usually did play the mono side... until the cue burn necessitated a flip. It was the FM stereo listeners, listening in stereo - the very reason for the stereo DJ 45 in the first place - who ended up hearing a weird-sounding, altered stereo mix.
The mono DJ 45 of "See" doesn't sound great, either; it's quite harsh, with not much bottom end.
Roscoe, yes, the "Please Mr. Postman" promo 45 got the CSG treatment. I don't have a stock copy of that one, so I can't say whether or not they got the same treatment. The stock stereo CSGs on A & M I have were from 1970 (Miguel Rios, Free) with the latest being a '72 Shawn Phillips Christmas 45. A & M used conventional stereo for the majority of the label's promo 45s; The Carpenters seem to be the one act that utilized CSG the most. Here's what I found from those that were handy:
CSG-Processed (on the stereo side) DJ 45s:
1446 "Yesterday Once More"
1468 "Top Of The World"
1646 "Please Mr. Postman"
1721 "Solitaire"
1800 "There's A Kind Of Hush"
1828 "I Need To Be In Love"
1859 "Goofus"
1940 "All You Get From Love Is A Love Song" (both the small-hole and normal-sized hole DJ 45s)
Conventional (Non-CSG-Processed) stereo DJ 45s:
1351 "It's Going To Take Some Time"
1521 "I Won't Last A Day Without You"
1677 "Only Yesterday"
2008 "Sweet Sweet Smile"
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AndrewChouffi
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| Posted: 09 April 2008 at 12:04am | IP Logged
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If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Free's single mix of "All Right Now" Haeco-CSG processed on the A&M commercial 45, but NOT CSG processed on the stereo side of the DJ edit-of-single-mix 45?
Andy
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 09 April 2008 at 6:07am | IP Logged
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Andy, I don't have the 4:14 DJ 45 of A & M 1206. My copy is the mono/mono edit with the "2:70" stated running time (a warm-up, perhaps, to the 2:98 stated time on the group's 1973 non-charter "Wishing Well" [Island 1212].)
I also have the 1975 non-CSG stereo DJ 45 reissue (A & M 1720) from the Best Of Free LP with a stated time of 3:30.
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AndrewChouffi
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| Posted: 09 April 2008 at 8:23am | IP Logged
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Hi 'Yah Shure',
I don't believe there was a 4:14 DJ 45 of "All Right Now". There was only the '2:70' edit-of-the-single-mix (but I'm pretty sure there was a stereo/mono copy too [although my memory could be playing tricks on me]).
The 1975 DJ 45 reissue was an edit of the LP mix, I believe. Could you please check for me?
The single mix has a more energetic rhythm guitar riff & prominant cowbell, the LP mix has a simpler rhythm guitar part & a temple block.
Andy
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 09 April 2008 at 5:19pm | IP Logged
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Hi Andy,
The 1975 DJ 45 is, interestingly, the 45 mix with an actual time of 3:44. I don't have the Best Of Free LP, which leads me to ask: which version is on that LP?
Edited by Yah Shure on 09 April 2008 at 6:15pm
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Bill Cahill
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| Posted: 09 April 2008 at 6:38pm | IP Logged
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I responded to this Free discussion by reviving the old Free All Right Now string. Check that out.
Bill
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 26 March 2011 at 10:33pm | IP Logged
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Back to Carpenters' "I Need to Be in Love"... Is the 45 version just an edit of the LP version? Or are there mix differences between the two that would make a 45 edit not possible?
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Roscoe
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| Posted: 27 March 2011 at 6:55am | IP Logged
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In addition to the first 13 seconds of intro being chopped
off the 45, there is a mix difference. The harp has been
removed from the first few seconds of the 45 intro. The
remainder of the song sounds like the same mix to me, but
because of the intro difference the 45 cannot be recreated
from the LP.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 28 March 2011 at 5:50am | IP Logged
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Thanks, Roscoe!
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 29 March 2011 at 12:41pm | IP Logged
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So as to make sure my understanding is correct, does the 45 version listed in the database match the 45?
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edtop40
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| Posted: 08 June 2013 at 5:47am | IP Logged
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yes and no.....it's the same version, but you'll need to
pitch up the 3:34 'kind of hush' cd version to run 3:30 and
you'll effectively re-create the true vinyl 45.....one
other note, literally....on the intro, the 45 has what
sounds like lips or tongue hitting the oboe or flute,
whatever wind instrument is on the 45...but the cd version
from 'kind of a hush' it has it removed....could this be
another of richard's obsession with perfection?....thanks
brian for providing me with the file for comparison
purposes years ago....
Edited by edtop40 on 08 June 2013 at 5:49am
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Michaeldila
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| Posted: 28 April 2014 at 6:54pm | IP Logged
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on the japanese 'singles box', the "i need to be in love" single version has the
first few seconds of the intro in mono, then quickly changes to stereo. it is
like this on another cd as well (i'd have to dig out all my carpenters stuff to
figure out which one though). the only cd source i have found that does NOT
have this quick mono intro is the 1989 "a kind of hush" cd (which i believe
was the first time richard remastered this lp). that cd also has the best sound
for this (rare) single edit by far. did the original 45 have this mono/stereo
intro?
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 29 April 2014 at 1:34pm | IP Logged
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I just listened to the "Singles Box" version, and the intro not actually mono, Michael. It is narrower stereo during the first four seconds, and there's definitely some sort of edit at that point, but the piano is center and the flute is panned slightly to the left. If you widen the stereo on the song, the flute shifts far left while the piano stays center.
Still, I too would like to know if it's like this on the 45.
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Topic: Carpenters-"I Need To Be In Love"
