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edtop40
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| Posted: 31 May 2008 at 4:26pm | IP Logged
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my commercial 45 issued as mca/carousel 51223 contains a non described version with a listed run time of 3:35 but actually runs 3:34 and is identical to the version from the cd "king cool"....
Edited by edtop40 on 31 May 2008 at 4:37pm
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abagon
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| Posted: 01 June 2008 at 11:20pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for your nice scan images, as always, edtop40.
My stock 45's actual running time is (3:32), but the listed time is "3:35". The record label is the same as ed's scan image. The run-out groove number is "MC 12034 W2".
The CD track on the "King Cool" runs (3:33). The CD track ends the word of "you" of "Love can rock you" lyric. but my stock 45 ends the word "can" of it.
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bwolfe
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I noticed that the mix of "Love Is Like A Rock" on the 20th Century Millenium disc of Donnie Iris sounds a bit different than I remember from the 45.
The mix on the CD seems a bit dry while the 45 version has a bit more reverb in its mix.
His music still airs on the classic rock station in Pittsburgh.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 05 August 2008 at 8:24pm | IP Logged
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I double-checked the commercial 45 run time info with abagon and he now claims the actual time is 3:31, not 3:35 as stated on the record label. This is :03 shorter than the actual time Ed reports, so are we looking at two different pressings here?
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MCT1
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| Posted: 06 August 2008 at 2:47pm | IP Logged
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As with the thread on "Love Is The Answer" by England Dan and John Ford Coley, if we do in fact have two different pressings here, I would be curious as to whether we can identify them as having come from two different plants. From what I understand, MCA had its own pressing plants. They had two facilities, one in Gloversville, New York, the other in Pinckneyville, Illinois. During the time period in question, each plant stamped an identifying symbol in the trail-off vinyl. The Gloversville symbol is two squares joined by a line, with a "G" superimposed over the line. The Pinckneyville symbol is two diamonds joined by a line, with a "P" superimposed over the line.
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abagon
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| Posted: 09 August 2008 at 8:21am | IP Logged
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Pat:
Now the comment of this song on the db is "commercial 45's were pressed in lengths of (3:41) and (3:44) not (3:45 as stated on the record label."
Please modify to "(3:31) and (3:34) not (3:35) as..."
I'm so grateful for your updating my run time info, as always.
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torcan
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MCT1 wrote:
| if we do in fact have two different pressings here, I would be curious as to whether we can identify them as having come from two different plants. From what I understand, MCA had its own pressing plants. |
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What confused me is that I have some MCA 45s with a "70 Universal Plaza" address, and some with "100 Universal Plaza" address. Most of the ones I own have the "70" address, but it always confused me as to why they were two different ones, especially since they seem to be talking about the same place.
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MCT1
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| Posted: 11 August 2008 at 7:46am | IP Logged
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torcan wrote:
| What confused me is that I have some MCA 45s with a "70 Universal Plaza" address, and some with "100 Universal Plaza" address. Most of the ones I own have the "70" address, but it always confused me as to why they were two different ones, especially since they seem to be talking about the same place. |
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Very interesting -- I've never noticed that before, but after pulling out some 45s by a sampling of a few artists who were on MCA (Tom Petty, Elton John, The Fixx), I see what you're talking about. I can't detect any pattern to it either. It doesn't seem to be chronological, or indicative of which pressing plant a particular record was made at, or of stock/promo status.
I have stock and promo copies of Elton John's "Candle In the Wind" (the 1987 release of the song). My stock copy was pressed at Gloversville and has 70 in the address; my promo was pressed at Pinckneyville and has 100 in the address. I don't think the plant and stock/promo variations account for the difference in the address, though. I have stock copies (of other titles) with a 100 address, and I have records that came from the the same plant (again, not necessarily the same title) with both 70 and 100 addresses.
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 28 July 2013 at 10:39pm | IP Logged
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bwolfe wrote:
I noticed that the mix of "Love Is Like A Rock" on the 20th Century Millenium disc of Donnie Iris sounds a bit different than I remember from the 45.
The mix on the CD seems a bit dry while the 45 version has a bit more reverb in its mix. |
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Just curious if anyone has looked further into this? Could there perhaps even be a mix difference between the 45 and LP?
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abagon
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| Posted: 29 July 2013 at 9:08am | IP Logged
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The actual vinyl LP running time is (3:32), the listed time is "3:35" on the LP record label. (LP title "King Cool" MCA/Carousel MCA-5237)
I don't feel a mix difference between the vinyl LP and the 45.
--abagon
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 29 July 2013 at 7:59pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for the analysis, Abagon!
I did an A/B comparison of "Love Is Like a Rock" between Donnie Iris' King Cool CD on Razor & Tie 2016 and the Best of: 20th Century Masters - The Millennium Collection CD (MCA 088112521) and my findings are inconclusive. In other words, it sounds like there might be a slight difference in reverb between the two CD sources during the guitar intro, but I'm not sure there's enough overall to warrant a database comment. I'd be interested to hear other opinions on this.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 29 July 2013 at 8:41pm | IP Logged
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Todd - I did the same comparison, and I conclude that's it's a different mix.
The mix on the 20th Century Masters CD is drier overall. The drums are a little punchier, and are pushed forward in the mix. Basically, everything sounds bigger and better defined. In comparison, the mix on King Cool sounds pretty sloppy.
If you need to latch onto one element to find a difference, try the line "never stop you" starting at 1:16. In the King Cool mix, there's a prominent guitar lick in the right channel that starts on the word "stop". In the 20th Century Masters mix, it's buried way in the background.
The two mixes sure are close, though. Very much like the 45 mix of Steel Breeze's "You Don't Want Me Anymore", which dialed back the reverb for the 45.
I'm actually really impressed at how fantastic the 20th Century Masters CD version sounds. I got used to the wall of reverb, and it's pretty shocking how great the song sounds once the reverb is peeled back.
(Edit: It seems that the LP and 45 mixes are the same, and that the 20th Century Masters mix is new, so I adjusted the wording of this post to reflect that.)
Edited by crapfromthepast on 30 July 2013 at 7:24am
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 29 July 2013 at 9:18pm | IP Logged
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I see what you mean about the guitar lick at 1:16, so now I'm thinking a case could perhaps be made here that the 20th Century Masters CD qualifies for something like a "slightly remixed" comment. I agree the sound quality on this disc is superior to that of the King of Cool CD, though I maintain that the mix differences between the two are subtle.
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MMathews
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| Posted: 29 July 2013 at 9:21pm | IP Logged
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Oh i clicked in here right away because I meant to ask
this very question ....
I have the song on 2 different comps (i'd have to look
them up) .. and i noticed that one was relatively dry and
the other has a lot of reverb.
A 45/LP difference seemed the most likely explanation.
So i'm gathering that the drier mix is the 45?
Also, i do wonder if the LP had a re-pressing with the 45
mix included..that would explain why some folks don't
hear a difference between the 2.
M
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 29 July 2013 at 9:53pm | IP Logged
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Mark:
Based on the information gathered so far, the 45 and LP both have a lot of reverb and appear to be the same. I'm thinking the audio engineer of the 20th Century Masters CD may have had access to the session tapes and slightly remixed the song to improve the sound quality.
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crapfromthepast
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The mastering credit on 20th Century Masters was Doug Schwartz, so I thought I'd find him (thanks, Google!) and ask him about the track.
Here's his reply:
"In all honesty, I can't remember exactly what sources were given to me for that Donnie Iris project. I'm almost certain this was not a special remix, but the question of where that song was sourced may be irretrievable. Typically I'd get a box of tapes from the vault and would evaluate on a case by case basis which would yield the best results. I did a whole slew of those Best of/20th Century Masters with Andy McKaie and the crew at Universal, and often he would have a post-it note on the outside of a reel saying "Song A, Song B" or whatever. It's gratifying to know that the work still sounds good to your ears."
After a back-and-forth or two in which I listed some of my favorite mastering engineers, he offered:
"Before I even began my recording career, I was a nerd with a gatefold jacket on his lap, memorizing LP credits, so I'm right there with ya. I'm lucky enough to be on a first-name basis with several of the luminaries you've mentioned: Steve Hoffman was there at MCA before Andy McKaie (there's a whole story there). Lee Herschberg recorded several of my Mom (and her sisters) for Dot and Coral in the early 60's. I'll always remember meeting Bill Inglot and him saying "Just patch direct out of the tape deck into the converters-we don't need any processing". He really knew his stuff, and that's not even mentioning his encyclopedic knowledge of rock."
"I really do wish I had more complete info to give you. My best guess would be that the vault has several passes at that song. Oftentimes, mixes for single/45 had a narrower stage (if not downright mono) so somehow my bet is that there's a better source than what was used initially for the King Cool release. This brings us back to Inglot, who used to absolutely insist on using the first generation master tape and not an EQ'd for LP copy. Guys at the vault in the dawn of the CD era were not so versed in what the differences were, and how important that could be."
That's directly from mastering engineer Doug Schwartz, who deserves a thank-you from all of us here for being so gracious in his correspondence.
So, we can conclude definitively that it was not remixed from the multi-tracks for 20th Century Masters, but was made earlier and was probably unused.
I should probably try to ask Donnie Iris himself. He may not remember the specifics (from a scant 30 years ago), but at least it will give me an excuse to get in touch with Donnie Iris!
Edited by crapfromthepast on 31 July 2013 at 2:56pm
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 31 July 2013 at 7:30pm | IP Logged
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Nice job, Ron, and thanks indeed to Doug Schwartz for taking the time to reply to your inquiry. Interesting stuff! If you also attempt to contact Donnie Iris and happen to get a response, please do pass it along!
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80smusicfreak
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Attn: Pat. The db already lists the following under Donnie Iris' 1981 hit, "Ah! Leah!":
Quote:
| (S) (3:41) Seathru 101 Out Of The Blue |
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As a huge DI fan, I have that CD as well; it's actually a 1992 compilation of most of his '80s hits, plus six then-new songs. However, note that track 12 is "Love is Like a Rock", and I see that Out of the Blue is currently NOT shown under this song in the on-line database. (They did leave off his third top 40 hit, 1982's "My Girl", though.) Both "Ah! Leah!" and "Love is Like a Rock" are the original hit recordings on Out of the Blue, licensed from MCA...
crapfromthepast wrote:
| The mastering credit on 20th Century Masters was Doug Schwartz, so I thought I'd find him (thanks, Google!) and ask him about the track. |
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A belated nod to your excellent detective work as always, cftp. I have yet to meet DI or see him in concert myself, but he's been very high on my list for some 15 years now! (Alas, he no longer strays very far from western PA/eastern OH anymore when performing.) I will second Todd's request to please post here, should you ever get in contact w/ him - he does seem fairly accessible, from what I understand...
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Topic: donnie iris "love is like a rock"
