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jimct
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| Posted: 03 June 2008 at 11:20pm | IP Logged
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My commercial 45, which is mono, has a listed time of (3:23) and an actual time of (3:22). I only post this info because the many database CDs which specify "45 version" for this song have run times of either (3:26) or (3:27).
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aaronk
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| Posted: 07 March 2012 at 9:22am | IP Logged
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Since I was just analyzing the (poorly mastered from mp3) tracks on "The Classic Sixties Collection 1969-70," I think the comment for "Crimson And Clover" on this disc may need to be changed.
I did a comparison with the copy on Time Life's AM Gold, and the edit is identical to the one on Classic Sixties. The problem is that the AM Gold disc says "a noble attempt at recreating the 45 version but unfortunately this is not the real 45 version" while the Classic Sixties disc says "45 version." One of these comments must be incorrect.
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Aaron Kannowski
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aaronk
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| Posted: 07 March 2012 at 11:22am | IP Logged
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Actually, I just double checked them against a dub of the 45, and they are both incorrect. In fact, the Rhino Billboard disc was issued in two different pressings. The later pressing has the correct edit, while the earlier one is the same incorrect edit that is on AM Gold and Classic Sixties.
The easiest way to tell is that the instrumental section starting around 2:00 repeats 6 times on the 45 version and ends with a drum fill that is slightly "off." The incorrect edit has only 5 repeats of the instrumental section and has only two drum hits on the 5th loop.
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Aaron Kannowski
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Bill Cahill
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| Posted: 07 March 2012 at 11:30am | IP Logged
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I don't have the AM Gold CD, but the history of the 45 version on CD goes as follows:
I suspect Bill Inglot made the first edit which took the album version as the source, and tried to create a single version as best as he could. But since the second instrumental section is missing from the LP version, he simply repeated the first instrumental section and did a creative edit on some of the guitar hits to be "similar" the the single version. This was on the original "Billboard Greatest Hits 1969" It may have ended up on some Time Life CDs too, they tended to share sources with Rhino.
Then after Rhino bought Roulette they had access to the Tommy James multi-tracks and they were able to mix a stereo single complete with the second instrumental section. Rhino may have replaced this version on later edition of CDs like Billboard's Greatest Hits 1969.
Finally the 40th anniversary CD came out with mono versions of most songs, including "Crimson and Clover".
However NONE of these versions match the exclusive fade out from the original Crimson and Clover 45, (Even the 40th anniversary CD isn't right). At the end of the original 45, all instruments fade completely out except for a lone "bell" at the very end.
Edited by Bill Cahill on 07 March 2012 at 11:31am
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 07 March 2012 at 11:44am | IP Logged
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Unfortunately, I suspect the 40th Anniversary set may have been the last great opportunity to hear on CD the bell sound at the very end of "Crimson and Clover".
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aaronk
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| Posted: 07 March 2012 at 11:59am | IP Logged
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Bill, that's really interesting! Thanks for sharing that behind-the-scenes info.
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Aaron Kannowski
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Pat Downey
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| Posted: 07 March 2012 at 7:45pm | IP Logged
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I just timed my commercial 45 and it comes in at (3:20) not (3:23) as stated on the record label. The matrix number is 19510. Jim you stated above that your 45 times out to (3:22) so could you double check that time (I timed mine twice and got (3:20) each time)? Now as for Bill Cahill's comment about the fade, on my copy all the instruments are audible thoughout the fade and I do not hear a bell at the end. How about your copy Jim does it end with a bell?
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Bill Cahill
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| Posted: 07 March 2012 at 9:15pm | IP Logged
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I'd call it at 3:23 on my copy. That bell is so low it's tough to tell when the reverb of the bell is over, but I believe it makes it to 3:23, but just barely. Mine has the B side of "Some Kind of Love". I think some have a B side of "I'm Taken".
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 07 March 2012 at 10:38pm | IP Logged
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I still had the vinyl 45 wav file handy from the Tommy James 40th Anniversary set analysis from a few years ago. The last bell (or chime) ends rather abruptly when you put it under the audio microscope, so to speak. It times out to exactly 3:22.5 on my copy. And yes, the two final bells are at an extremely low level; barely perceptible over the surface noise. Because we're not listening to the original mono 45 master tape (which, as Tommy James noted in his book, was only a rough mix in the first place) we don't really know how much of the noise under the bells might be tape hiss and how much is vinyl surface noise. If there is a significant amount of tape hiss present, I could better understand why the final bells have been trimmed off the CD releases.
My Roulette stock copy is an Indianapolis plant RCA pressing (letter "I" machine-stamped in the deadwax across from the matrix number.) The hand-etched matrix number is 19510-2.
Edited by Yah Shure on 07 March 2012 at 10:39pm
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Hykker
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| Posted: 08 March 2012 at 7:02am | IP Logged
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Bill Cahill wrote:
| Mine has the B side of "Some Kind of Love". I think some have a B side of "I'm Taken". |
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I have 2 copies of this, a promo and a stock...the promo has "(I'm) Taken" as the B side, the stock copy is the same as yours. I've never compared the fade on C&C between the two.
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crapfromthepast
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| Posted: 16 September 2020 at 2:59pm | IP Logged
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A strange history for this song.
Mono 45 version (printed 3:23)
Released in Nov 1968, according to Wikipedia.
The commercial 45 was mono, and as far as I can tell from Discogs, the promo 45s did not include a stereo side.
The mono 45 appears on just one CD: Collectors' Choice Music's 40 Years - The Complete Singles Collection (1966-2006) (2008), where it runs 3:19.
Stereo LP version (printed 5:26)
Released in Dec 1968, according to Wikipedia.
According to Wikipedia, radio stations suggested that the group create a longer version of the song. They did just that.
The LP version adds a few seconds of studio chatter at the beginning of the song: "I'm just gonna fool around man like just do a thing you know whatever and I'll just you know."
The LP follows the structure of the 45 from 0:08 to 2:05 (corresponds to 0:00 to 1:56 of the 45).
The LP version replaces the guitar section from 1:56 to 2:22 of the 45 with a new solo from 2:05 to 4:30 on the LP version.
The LP version then returns to the structure of the 45 at 4:30 (2:22 on the 45), and follows the structure of the 45 to the end of the 45, and a bit longer (it's just instrumental at this point).
Unfortunately, the new spliced-in solo had a severe speed error, and was significantly slower than the portion before it. This speed error caused the splice at 2:05 of the LP version to be one of the most painful splices ever in the history of recorded music. It's unbelievable. If Tommy James was looking for trippy psychedelia, he certainly got it!
For all the stereo LP versions on CD, the speed error is corrected. (Info from the database; I don't have any of the stereo LP versions from a CD source.)
For all the LP versions in mono on CD, the speed error is left intact. I have what I think is a fake-stereo (E) version of the LP version (faded 14 second early) on Time-Life's Classic Rock Vol. 4 1968 (1987). The jarring edit is intact at 1:56. Amazing.
Non-hit 1989 edit of LP version (3:23)
For the 1989 release of Rhino's Billboard Top Rock 'N' Roll Hits 1969, either the true mono 45 was either unavailable, or Rhino wanted a stereo version of the 45 (which didn't exist).
So, Bill Inglot (or another Rhino engineer) edited the stereo LP version to attempt to match the structure of the 45. It was a really good attempt, using the guitar break from 1:11 to 1:28 of the LP version (1:04 to 1:20 of the 45) and some clever editing to replace the missing parts of the 45 (1:56 to 2:22). Close, but not perfect.
The same analog transfer as Billboard is used on:- Time-Life's Superhits Vol. 7 1969 (1991) - swaps the left and right channels and fades about two seconds early; avoid
- Time-Life's AM Gold Vol. 1 1969 (1991) - this disc is a repackaging of Superhits Vol. 7 1969 (1991) , so it, too, swaps the left and right channels and fades about two seconds early; avoid
Stereo 45 version (3:26)
The 45 didn't exist in stereo in 1969, when the song was a hit. The 1989 edit of the stereo LP version was as close as one could get without access to the multi-track tapes...
...until later in 1989, when Rhino acquired the Roulette catalog. Problem solved! (Thanks to Bill Cahill for posting this detail above back in 2012.) Bill Inglot (or another Rhino engineer) created a new (meaning, 1989) stereo mix of the true 45 take from the multi-track tapes.
You can tell that the panning doesn't quite match the LP mix. On the stereo LP mix, the vocals are panned hard right and everything else is panned hard left. On the new stereo 45 mix, some of the instruments are present in the right channel. Listen at 0:04 - bass and drums are present in the right channel starting on a downbeat at 0:04 in the new stereo 45 mix, but are completely absent from the right channel in the stereo LP mix.
The new stereo mix first appeared on Rhino's Tommy James Anthology (1989). The same analog transfer is used on:- Rhino's promotional Incredible Collections Wheel Of Knowledge (1991, PRO2 90081) - digitally exactly 0.48 dB quieter
- Rhino's Tommy James Very Best Of (1993) - digitally identical
- Rhino's Billboard Top R&R Hits 1969 (1993 rerelease; note that the 1988 original release of this disc had the edit of the stereo LP version)
- Varese Sarabande's Dick Bartley On The Radio Vol. 1 (1997) - digitally exactly 0.48 dB quieter
My recommendations
For the mono 45 version, go with Collectors' Choice Music's 40 Years - The Complete Singles Collection (1966-2006) (2008).
For the stereo LP version, all the versions on CD fixed the speed error. I can't really recommend the (E) version of the LP version faded early, which is all I have on CD.
For the stereo 45 version (knowing that it was created in 1989), go with Rhino's Tommy James And The Shondells Anthology (1989) if you want a single-artist CD, or Rhino's Billboard Top R&R Hits 1969 (1993 rerelease) if you want a multi-artist compilation.
For the non-hit 1989 edit of the LP version, if you must have it, go with Rhino's Billboard Top Rock 'N' Roll Hits 1969 (original 1989 release).
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TallPaulInKy
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| Posted: 11 November 2020 at 9:37am | IP Logged
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There is a new Complete Roulette recordings of Tommy
James which claims to include:
CRIMSON AND CLOVER (45 RADIO VERSION) (Roulette 7028)
Was there a separate radio edit?
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 11 November 2020 at 9:54am | IP Logged
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Will the new collection finally contain the proper 45
version of Mony Mony? Any info on stereo vs. mono content
or songs with proper lengths and fades?
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Brian W.
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| Posted: 12 November 2020 at 2:17am | IP Logged
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eriejwg wrote:
Will the new collection finally contain
the proper 45 version of Mony Mony? Any info on stereo
vs. mono content or songs with proper lengths and fades?
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No info like that yet. It doesn't come out till Jan.
29th.
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Topic: Tommy James/Shondells-"Crimson And..."
