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jimct
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| Posted: 07 July 2008 at 10:27pm | IP Logged
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Both of my commercial 45 copies, which are mono and confirmed as Atco 6590, have a listed time of (2:50) and an actual time of (2:52). I only post this info because both of my 45 copies fade out, and do NOT end cold. All current database CDs that specify "45 version", end cold, and feature slightly longer run times, at either (2:57) or (2:58). To quote my good friend EdTop40, the "true" 45 version can be created by starting a pretty quick, severe fade at (2:47), to (2:52). To me, the 45's ending sounds very strange; I always thought the cold ending was a highlight of the song. Perhaps Atco thought at the time that leaving in the cold ending would've made the song sound "too AOR". It couldn't be a run time issue, because even with the cold end included, it still clocks in at less than (3:00). I would suspect that someone here must remember playing/hearing this faded 45 version on Top 40 radio back in 1967 and/or 1968 - anyone?
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Gary Mack
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| Posted: 08 July 2008 at 5:43am | IP Logged
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I remember playing that one in my DJ days, and we (KRIZ/Phoenix) played both the 45 and LP versions (probably nights only). The single faded - I don't recall a 45 with the cold ending.
GM
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 08 July 2008 at 8:05am | IP Logged
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Jim, my 1968 Atco 6590 mono promo 45 is identical to the fade endings and (2:52) timings on your commercial 45s.
The fade is a little hasty, that's for sure, but the last 1.1 seconds stay at the same very low level. And you're right, it was so "close to home" that the fade seemed unnecessary. If it was done to provide top-40 jocks with a fadeout to talk over, it didn't really matter, what with it being all-instrumental well before that point, anyway.
This appears to be one of those cases where the most sensible approach has won out: the 45 edit was excellent, but the fadeout was pointless, so the cold ending has become the default short version everyone knows and hears today. Even most of us purists can live with this one.
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MCT1
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| Posted: 09 July 2008 at 7:49am | IP Logged
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From the database, it appears that all CD issues of this song are mono, regardless of whether they are the 45 or LP version, except for one re-recording. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the original 45 was in mono, but a quick web search indicates that the parent Vanilla Fudge LP was available in both mono and stereo -- and given that commerically released mono LPs were on their last legs in 1967-68, I would expect that the stereo version was probably by far the better seller of the two. Based on that, I would have assumed that the LP version, at least, would be readily available in stereo. Does anyone know why all the CD issues of the LP version are in mono? Is this song actually in mono on the original stereo Vanilla Fudge LP?
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MPH711
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| Posted: 09 July 2008 at 9:20am | IP Logged
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The song is not stereo on the stereo LP.
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TomDiehl1
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| Posted: 09 July 2008 at 11:22am | IP Logged
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Shadow Morton had recorded this song as a demo and had not intended it to be commercially released, so he never mixed the song into stereo. Reportedly he still has posession of the original 8-track session master still, but no true stereo issue of the song exists on any commercial release anywhere in the world.
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TomDiehl1
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| Posted: 13 July 2008 at 2:10pm | IP Logged
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I just discovered that I have this song on a promotional EP, Atco SP-4516, it is the 2nd song on side A, it has a listed time of 2:50 but an actual playing time of 2:56 and ends cold.
Edited by TomDiehl1 on 13 July 2008 at 2:24pm
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 13 July 2008 at 5:20pm | IP Logged
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Nice one, Tom!
The Atlantic/Atco promo EPs were interesting, since they didn't always reflect the regular 45 versions. The B-side of Iron Butterfly's "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida" was a 3:27 edit of "Iron Butterfly Theme," an instrumental from their first LP Heavy. Yet the Heavy promo EP contained the entire 4:35 album cut.
Edited by Yah Shure on 20 November 2008 at 8:12pm
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MCT1
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| Posted: 17 July 2008 at 8:27pm | IP Logged
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On Youtube, there is a vintage clip of the band lip-synching to the 45 version on a TV show, in which the song ends cold, without the early fade. Perhaps the show got its audio off of the same EP that Tom has. Another possibility, if the clip is from somewhere outside the U.S. (its country of origin was not clear to me), is that the unfaded version may have been used on the single in other countries.
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MPH711
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| Posted: 18 July 2008 at 10:06am | IP Logged
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I had the cold ending edit version on a K-Tel or Ronco LP. I can't get my hands on it to see which one. I can sure picture the cover in my head.
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edtop40
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| Posted: 25 July 2010 at 2:07pm | IP Logged
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i just correctly re-created the true 45 version by fading out for 0:06 from 2:46 to 2:52....and then re-faded the last 0:03 to properly create the quick fade of the 45...
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Santi Paradoa
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| Posted: 23 May 2014 at 8:34pm | IP Logged
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BTW, the true 45 version with the fade finally got released
on the Atco singles set recently out on the Real Gone Music
label. It's about time.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 23 May 2014 at 9:48pm | IP Logged
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Santi Paradoa wrote:
BTW, the true 45 version with the fade finally got released
on the Atco singles set recently out on the Real Gone Music
label. It's about time. |
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I'll be posting a detailed analysis within a few days, based on the Atco 45s I have. The short (45?) version, for now, based on this particular song:
1) The new CD track runs audibly slower than the 45.
2) The fade is smoothed out and does not exactly match that of the 45.
3) The mastering runs on the loud side. It's definitely more compressed than the Atco 45. It isn't brickwalled, but it does run loud.
More to come.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 30 May 2014 at 8:20am | IP Logged
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Here are how the Vanilla Fudge Atco 45s I have compare with their A and B-side counterparts on Real Gone Music’s The Complete Atco Singles CD (thank you, Jim!) Unless otherwise specified, these 45s are all Plastic Products Atco stock vinyl pressings:
Atco 6554 (Monarch styrene pressing)
"WHERE IS MY MIND" [BB #73] (68C-13710-21 delta # 69893)
listed time: 2:43
actual time: 2:41.159
CD track actual time 2:42.913
CD track runs 1.754 seconds slower than the 45
"THE LOOK OF LOVE" (68C-13711-21 delta # 69892-X)
listed time: 2:46
actual time: 2:45.046
CD actual time: 2:46.846
CD track runs 1.8 seconds slower than the 45
Atco 6590 [DJ copy]
"YOU KEEP ME HANGIN’ ON" [BB #6] (67C-12458-11)
listed time: 2:50
actual time: 2:52. 548
CD actual time: 2:55.019 (fade-out does not match the 45 and runs a hair longer)
CD track speed is noticeably slower than the 45
"COME BY DAY, COME BY NIGHT" (68C-14558-11)
listed time: 2:53
actual time: 2:53.065
CD actual time: 2:56.567
CD track runs 2.544 seconds slower at the final drum beat
Atco 6616
"TAKE ME FOR A LITTLE WHILE" [BB #38] (67C-12459-12)
listed time: 3:20
actual time: 3:22.957
CD actual time: 3:24.276
CD track runs 1.319 seconds slower than the 45
"THOUGHTS" (68-C-14477-13)
listed time: 3:28
actual time: 3:27.508
CD actual time: 3:29.687
CD track runs 2.179 seconds slower than the 45
Atco 6632
"SEASON OF THE WITCH, PT. 1" [BB #65] (68-C-15616-12)
listed time: 3:30
actual time: 3:30.069
CD actual time: 3:31.040 (tail end of fade-out is a hair longer than on the 45)
CD track runs 0.669 seconds slower than the 45
"SEASON OF THE WITCH, PT. 2" (68-C-15617-12)
listed time: 3:14
actual time: 3:14.453
CD actual time: 3:14.877
CD track runs 0.424 seconds slower than the 45
Atco 99729 [stereo double A-sided DJ copy, both sides identical. Specialty vinyl pressing.]
"MYSTERY" (ST84C46674-1)
listed time: 3:39 (under which, label states “EDIT”)
actual time: 3:39.237
CD actual time: 4:36.276
I don’t know whether or not the 1984 “Mystery” stock 45 was edited, but the track on The Complete Atco Singles CD is obviously not the DJ 45 edit.
Analysis:
• All of the above CD tracks run slower than their 45 ancestors, some audibly so.
• All of the above mono CD tracks are sourced from the mono singles masters.
• There is more tape hiss on the CD track fade-outs (for the most part) than on the 45s.
• Distortion apparent on the 45s is also present on the CD tracks.
• Although nowhere near brickwalled, the CD tracks are mastered for extra loudness and generally sound more compressed than the original Atco 45s.
Edited by Yah Shure on 30 May 2014 at 12:34pm
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Santi Paradoa
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| Posted: 30 May 2014 at 10:49am | IP Logged
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Good info Yah Shure. Shame they couldn't at the very least get the speed correct for most if not all the tracks on this new release. May need to recommend the folks at Real Gone Music consult with several of the board members here to get these small details correct when they are mastering future singles collections.
Edited by Santi Paradoa on 30 May 2014 at 11:56am
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TomDiehl1
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| Posted: 25 June 2014 at 4:34pm | IP Logged
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Having worked on one Real Gone release, I can say that
perhaps they were only able to work with the transfers they
were sent.... studio time being costly may have been a
major deciding factor in not wanting to spend the time or
money to get every single song to match the 45's 100%. For
the casual fan, the songs will likely be close enough.
Interesting that they didn't get the right fade on You Keep
Me Hanging On, though.
As for Mystery, according to 45cat, the stock copy has a
matrix number of ST-84C-46431. I suspect, then, that it
would be the longer version of the song.
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Yah Shure
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| Posted: 25 June 2014 at 6:26pm | IP Logged
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TomDiehl1 wrote:
| perhaps they were only able to work with the transfers they were sent |
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Real Gone probably never got any transfers at all. I'm sure all production aspects of the CD were done in-house at WEA through Warner Special Products.
TomDiel1 wrote:
| As for Mystery, according to 45cat, the stock copy has a matrix number of ST-84C-46431. I suspect, then, that it would be the longer version of the song. |
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I found a very fuzzy stock 45 label scan at Discogs several weeks ago, which indicated it was the longer version.
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Top 40 Music on Compact Disc : Chat Board
Topic: Vanilla Fudge-"You Keep Me Hangin’ On"
