Top 40 Music on Compact Disc: Hard To Find 45s On CD Vol. 8: Seventies

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crapfromthepast
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Posted: 23 December 2008 at 2:09pm \| IP Logged

Many of us (myself included) are big fans of the Eric CDs - great track selection, great liner notes, very good sound, and a good attention to the hit single versions of the tracks.

While Hard To Find 45s On CD Vol. 8: Seventies Pop Classics (Eric, 2002) has all of the above great qualities and is a sturdy pop collection in its own right, I will point out that many of the tracks are readily available elsewhere. In fact, many tracks on this CD are digital clones of versions from existing CDs, with just a level change, or a level change and an EQ adjustment.

(Specifically, a "digital clone" of a track means that you can get the samples from the two tracks to line up in an audio editing program. If you can then get cancellation down to dithering noise with a level change, then one is "digitally exactly" x.x dB louder/quieter than the other. If the samples line up but you can't get complete cancellation, then one is an EQ-ed version of the other. If you can detect transient effects, then there may be additional noise reduction applied to one of the tracks.)

Here are my findings, track by track:

1. Kiss You All Over - Exile
    Different EQ than Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 21 (1993) and Rhino's Billboard Top Hits - 1978 (1991)

2. Stumblin' In - Suzi Quatro and Chris Norman
    Different EQ than Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 22 (1993)

3. Which Way You Goin' Billy? - The Poppy Family
    About 0.4% faster than version on Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 2 (1990) - obviously different mastering

4. Last Song - Edward Bear
    About 0.6% slower than version on Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 10 (1990) - obviously different mastering

5. Oh Babe What Would You Say? - Hurricane Smith
    About 0.1% slower than version on Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 10 (1990) - obviously different mastering

6. Love Really Hurts Without You - Billy Ocean
    Different EQ than Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 23 (1996)

7. Kung Fu Fighting - Carl Douglas
    Digitally exactly 1.5 dB louder than Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 14 (1990), possibly with additional noise reduction

8. Right Back Where We Started From - Maxine Nightingale
    Appears to be based on the mastering of Time-Life's Sounds Of The Seventies - 1976: Take Two (1991), but with added phasing that's imperceptible when you hear the track by itself, but sounds like wow/flutter when you combine the two tracks

9. You Don't Have To Be A Star (To Be In My Show) - Marilyn McCoo and Billy Davis Jr.
    Different EQ than Razor & Tie's Easy '70s (1993), with an additional fade from 3:28 to 3:41; also different EQ than Time-Life's Pop Nuggets: Late '70s (1995) with same additional fade

10. My Angel Baby - Toby Beau
    Different EQ than Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 25 (1996)

11. Fool (If You Think It's Over) - Chris Rea
    Obviously different mastering than other versions I have. Here are instructions for creating this version from the 4:49 version on Mystic Music Present Good Times (1991) - remove the 128 beats from 2:52.6-4:06.5 so that there's an obvious-sounding edit at "ooh", and speed up by about 0.5%. Now that I know where it is, the edit is painful for me to hear - you hear a sax in the background before the edit that disappears after the edit. Oof!

12. Emotion - Samantha Sang
    Digitally exactly same levels as Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 24 (1996), most likely with additional noise reduction

13. Right Time Of The Night - Jennifer Warnes
    Different EQ than Sessions' Secret Love (1987)

14. After The Goldrush - Prelude
    Very uncommon track, and not on any other CDs I own. Truth be told, I've never heard this song before.

15. Rivers Of Babylon - Boney M
    Also an uncommon track. The only other CD I have with this song features a remixed version from the mid-'80s.

16. Beautiful Sunday - Daniel Boone
    Different EQ than Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 9 (1990)

17. Magic - Pilot
    Digitally exactly 1.5 dB quieter than Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 14 (1990)

18. Ebony Eyes - Bob Welch
    Same version but different mastering than both Time-Life's Late '70s (1993) and Cema's Rock On - 1978 (1996)

19. Driver's Seat - Sniff 'N' The Tears
    Digitally identical to Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 22 (1993), with an additional fade from 3:31.5 to 3:41.7

20. Love Is In The Air - John Paul Young
    About 1.3% faster than versions on both Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 22 (1993) and Time-Life's AM Nuggets (1993) - obviously different masterings

This is all just FYI. Worth it for the Boney M and Prelude tracks, but the other 18 are readily found elsewhere or can be easily created from versions found elsewhere.

Edited by crapfromthepast on 23 December 2008 at 2:13pm

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Hykker
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Posted: 23 December 2008 at 6:37pm \| IP Logged

My only complaint on many of these sets is that only a couple of songs per disc are songs that are particularly hard to find, the rest being fairly common. Hard to justify (both $ and storage space-wise) buying a CD with only a couple songs you didn't already have.

Couple questions on this set;

Quote:

3. Which Way You Goin' Billy? - The Poppy Family
About 0.4% faster than version on Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 2 (1990) - obviously different mastering

Is this the album version (as was on the Rhino CD) or a stereo mix of the single version? One fairly obvious difference was the gliss at the beginning of the chorus.

Quote:

11. Fool (If You Think It's Over) - Chris Rea
Obviously different mastering than other versions I have. Here are instructions for creating this version from the 4:49 version on Mystic Music Present Good Times (1991) - remove the 128 beats from 2:52.6-4:06.5 so that there's an obvious-sounding edit at "ooh", and speed up by about 0.5%. Now that I know where it is, the edit is painful for me to hear - you hear a sax in the background before the edit that disappears after the edit. Oof!

Is this the same edit that's on the single, or a clumsy re-creation?

Quote:

14. After The Goldrush - Prelude
Very uncommon track, and not on any other CDs I own. Truth be told, I've never heard this song before.

Don't think I've ever run across this one on CD before. Being acapella, even a clean vinyl copy sounds kind of grody. Does it sound like it's from tape or cleaned-up vinyl?
Don't recall it being much of a hit, but it was in the gold rotation of a west coast station I did weekends at in the mid 70s. No flames please, but I like this version a lot better than Neil Young's.

Quote:

19. Driver's Seat - Sniff 'N' The Tears
Digitally identical to Rhino's Have A Nice Day Vol. 22 (1993), with an additional fade from 3:31.5 to 3:41.7

How does it compare with the length of the 45, which faded earlier than what's on the Rhino CD?

Edited by Hykker on 23 December 2008 at 6:47pm

eriejwg
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Posted: 23 December 2008 at 7:18pm \| IP Logged

Perhaps, Tom Daly will chime in on this thread, since Skyline, I believe, mastered these CD's...

According to the db, "Driver's Seat" is the 45 length, Chris Rea is the 45 version, Poppy Family is the LP version.

crapfromthepast
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Posted: 23 December 2008 at 7:27pm \| IP Logged

Hykker - Good questions. Unfortunately, I don't know the 45 versions of these songs well enough to answer some of them...

Quote:

3. Which Way You Goin' Billy? - The Poppy Family

Is this the album version (as was on the Rhino CD) or a stereo mix of the single version? One fairly obvious difference was the gliss at the beginning of the chorus.

I listened to both, and the gliss at the beginning of the chorus sounds the same on both to my ears. If there's an obvious distinction between album and single versions, I don't hear it. For this track, it sounds like the Eric CD uses a lower-generation tape than the Rhino - it has a lot more "presence" than the Rhino CD on this song.

Quote:

11. Fool (If You Think It's Over) - Chris Rea

Is this the same edit that's on the single, or a clumsy re-creation?

I don't have the 45, so I can't compare directly. The edit on the Eric CD is kinda painful...

Quote:

14. After The Goldrush - Prelude

Don't think I've ever run across this one on CD before. Being acapella, even a clean vinyl copy sounds kind of grody. Does it sound like it's from tape or cleaned-up vinyl?
Don't recall it being much of a hit, but it was in the gold rotation of a west coast station I did weekends at in the mid 70s. No flames please, but I like this version a lot better than Neil Young's.

Could go either way - I didn't hear any obvious surface noise in the quiet parts or on the tail of the last note. And thankfully, it's in stereo - this is one song that would sound awful in mono. A terrific record, and I'm surprised that it's escaped me until now.

Quote:

19. Driver's Seat - Sniff 'N' The Tears

How does it compare with the length of the 45, which faded earlier than what's on the Rhino CD?

My 45 is buried in the basement somewhere, but the Eric CD seems to fade where I remember the 45 fading. Always a favorite of mine, and one that instantly takes me back to when I was 10 and just discovering top 40 radio. There's a 12" version of this that came out in 1980, which is included on their "Best Of" CD - it would be just perfect except that it omits some of the accent synth sounds that begin each verse.

80smusicfreak
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Posted: 23 December 2008 at 11:28pm \| IP Logged

crapfromthepast wrote:

19. Driver's Seat - Sniff 'N' The Tears

Always a favorite of mine, and one that instantly takes me back to when I was 10 and just discovering top 40 radio. There's a 12" version of this that came out in 1980, which is included on their "Best Of" CD - it would be just perfect except that it omits some of the accent synth sounds that begin each verse.

Fantastic song, indeed - probably in my top 20, all-time. I assume you're referring to the U.K. import titled "A Best of..." on Chiswick CDWIK 102, and is therefore not included in Pat's book/database. I have that CD as well, and had never heard that 12" version prior to picking it up a few years ago. (Have all the group's original albums on cassette, though - oh, and Loz Netto's '80s solo albums are also recommended!) That (5:48) 12" version is pure bliss - heck, it IS perfect, lol. In fact, I hardly ever listen to the "45/LP lengths" any more, although for folks here, it's worth noting that the (3:59) "LP length" is also included on the "A Best of..." CD... :-)

davidclark
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Posted: 24 December 2008 at 6:55am \| IP Logged

Regarding Which Way You Goin' Billy?, the mono 45 fades later than the LP version, and, it is mixed quite different from the LP version (the snare drum has reverb not found on the LP version).

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Yah Shure
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Posted: 24 December 2008 at 3:50pm \| IP Logged

crapfromthepast wrote:

Quote:

Ron, I only ever recall hearing "Goldrush" on the mono AM top-40s. Perhaps that was just as well, considering how bad some of the older Motorumble broadcast turntables of the day sounded in FM stereo during quiet passages.

Every Prelude completist (lol) simply has to have a copy of "Christmas Message" (Island IXPI 1) in his or her collection. This one-sided promo is the shortest 45 with audio that I own, and is sung a capella to the tune of "After The Goldrush":

This is Prelude sending you a greeting
Especially from us to you
We wish you all a Merry Christmas
And a very happy New Year, too-oooo-ooo-ooooo

Although issued in mono, this was a pretty neat-sounding item. Total time was :20, making for a very odd-looking trailoff pattern.

Todd Ireland
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Posted: 28 December 2008 at 3:41pm \| IP Logged

Hykker wrote:

As a fellow collector who consumes a tremendous amount of money and space on my own CD collection, I can certainly appreciate the desire to see more rare and never-before-available tracks issued on CDs by the more collector-friendly independent labels like ERIC. Granted, I realize these labels are also in the business to make a profit by releasing CDs that are going to appeal to the widest audience as possible, even if it means putting together compilations where most of the songs are already widely available on other CDs. And since there aren't a lot of Top 40 hits left out there that have never appeared on CD, the indy labels may have a vested interest to issue only a couple of these remaining elusive titles at a time to keep their collector base coming back for more. ;-)

MMathews
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Posted: 07 January 2009 at 5:25pm \| IP Logged

Hi folks,

I assisted Mr. Daly in mastering this disc so i can answer some of the questions posed above.
I'll do my best:

Re: Which Way You Goin' Billy.
Mr. Buster had final say over that track, and yes he broke his own general rule for a HTF 45's package by electing to use the LP version here. The mono 45 mix, as David noted, is a different mix on which the drums are much lower, and the end runs a bit longer. The tape source for this LP version was provided by Terry Jacks. It was felt this was the best source coming from the owner, but it was very hissy so some noise reduction was used. Mr. Jacks does not have the mono master for the 45 version.

Re: Rivers Of Babylon. The Sire 45 was the only known time that version was ever issued anywhere. The only known place to get it was from where it would be: the Warner vaults. Bill called them and they located the Sire master and baked it for 6 hours to un-glue it as it had not been touched since 1978.

Re: Fool (If You Think It's Over).
Well, Tom's first attempt was to re-create the 45 version (in a non-clumsy way, preferably) from the LP version. He found that after re-creating the edits this was not possible (according to Tom) because the 45 faded at a later spot than the LP so it became too short.
So, again Bill contacted where the 45 master would be now, in the EMI vaults. Even tho they no longer have the rights, they still have the tape. (same deal as Boney M) This version is directly off the original UA 45 master, so for the bad edit, you'll need to speak to whoever edited it in 1978. :-)

For the rest of the tracks, all were provided to Tom the usual way they are these days by the special products divisions or whoever owns the tapes, either a DAT or CDR dub of exactly what they give out to everyone.
Tom and I simply mastered and EQ'd them accordingly to fit uniformly in this package, while keeping in mind the overall sound of the 45's. Original 45's were used for all tracks for comparison purposes, by the way.
Re: Drivers Seat (also one of my all time favs of the universe!) Tom was sent the same LP version as the Rhino cd even tho the 45 master was requested (common with SP divisions, you often dont get what you ask for) but he determined the 45 was just an early fade so he matched it to that.

Now, even at this project's conception, Tom and myself had pointed out to Bill many of these tracks didn't seem "hard to find" because we collectors vigilantly bought the entire Rhino series, and many other previously issued 70's packages. But he stated his track selection for this release wasn't based on whether they they were ever released before, but rather how many cd's were they were available on in 2002.
He pointed out many of the tracks only had 1 or 2 cd's listed in Pat's book at that time, a few were only on the Rhino cd and no where else back then. That was his thinking. But i guess the popularity of the Rhino set had more impact than he thought, since i recall he said this cd didn't sell as well as his 50's and 60's packages. I'd imagine that's why he hasn't done another one. Tom and myself of course submitted a list of remaining 70's rarities to possibly issue on future discs, but then you get back to reality. And even Eric must weigh how many units a cd full of rare 70's hits not-yet-on-cd would sell except to hard-core collectors like you and me. Not enough to justify the 25,000 minimum requirement forced by the majors.

There ya have it, hope some of that helps!

-Mark M

Todd Ireland
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Posted: 07 January 2009 at 6:15pm \| IP Logged

Thanks for your professional insight into the Hard To Find 45s On CD Vol. 8: Seventies Pop Classics CD, Mark. I think we can all appreciate the high-level effort of you and everyone involved in putting together a various artist compilation like this!

crapfromthepast
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Posted: 07 January 2009 at 9:53pm \| IP Logged

Indeed, many thanks for your detailed explanation, Mark.

I'd say the vast majority of us don't quite understand many of the logistics involved with getting the source material for compilations. Over on the stevehoffman.tv forum, we hear stories about baking tapes that have been sitting in vaults for 30 years, and trying to use equipment similar to what the tapes were originally recorded on, and so forth. But at the end of the day, when we buy a fine collection from Eric or Rhino or Time-Life, we really have no idea where the actual 0's and 1's come from.

For instance, it's fascinating to me to hear that your CD is the first place to get the Boney M single version, and how the 2-track mixdown tape probably hadn't been touched in over 25 years. Same as for the UA Chris Rea tape (you'd think UA would have done a better job with that edit!) - nice to hear the details. And great story about the tape sent straight from Terry Jacks himself!

It's too bad that those little stories never seem to find their way into liner notes (with the exception of the four Rock Artifacts CDs). I, for one, would really like to know when a CD features a fresh transfer from an analog tape, or if any NR or (heavens, no!) additional compression is used. I'd also like to know who did the original transfer from analog - probably Bill Inglot for a lot of those? No way to tell at this point, I'd guess...

If you ever feel like sharing more details from any of the other CDs you worked on, I'm sure there will be others like me waiting to soak in every detail!

MMathews
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Posted: 08 January 2009 at 4:39pm \| IP Logged

Hi again all,

No problem, my pleasure. I don't get to to the forum as often as i like, but on rare occasion i can offer an actual answer or help I'm ready to hop-to.
I'll tell you right now I do not have the professional industry background as some folks here do, or others who do professional mastering like Tom Daly. He's the one with the massive studio full of analog equipment, digital equipment, reel decks of various types, different turntables, special ones for 78's.. you name it. Very cool.
I myself have this PC, and behind me 2 rooms with about 13,000 cd's. I just happen to know my way around some pro mastering software blindfolded, and i consider my ears to be my golden asset. I ended up working with Tom on some Eric projects because of my friendship with him. Over the years I now consider Bill a good friend too, so i still help out sometimes when asked.
One might say i have good ears and some big opinions on how i think things should sound.
But i am in no way affiliated with long-time industry pro's like Bill Inglot. (i just love his ears! LOL).

But believe me, as for the stories and details on how this stuff actually gets done, I could sit and absorb it like air.

The only stories i can personally tell would relate to the several Eric cd's i've had the pleasure of co-mastering with Tom, like this one. I've heard lots of other stories but that would only be hearsay.
But, yes, Ron, i am the same way...I LOVE hearing or reading every detail of how some things come about and the behind-the-scenes stuff of just how these things end up on our shelves. It's always a case of, "you'd be surprised".

Just for my own tastes, i have no time for anyone who has a mammoth ego about it, as i have chatted with a few old-timers who are like that. (note that i am outspoken about my "opinions" because mastering and sound are subjective!) This is why i have great respect for Tom Daly, because he has taken a lot of heat for how Eric cd's sound as well as good, but he has always consulted with many for input on tracks and getting as much feedback from those around him as to tweaking things to make the most folks happy. Many engineers just assume their own way is the "right" way. I guess that's why, in my opinion (ahem) some cd's from major labels sound like crap.

I guess this was my entry i never had time to add to the old thread about "who are we??" That, by the way, was my favorite thread of all time. Even tho i am terrible at remembering who everyone is, it was awesome reading.

So, anytime i spot a Q about an Eric disc, if i can chime in, i certainly will.

Happy listening!

-Mark M

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