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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 05 November 2005 at 12:10pm | IP Logged
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Pat, a friend pointed out how you list the Bonnie Pointer "Heaven Must..." on the Radio Daze CD as the flip side of the DJ 45. He thought it was originally the A side of the commercial 45.
I've always taken issue with the way this entry is listed.
It's true that when the disco version came out, this pop mix appeared on the B-side of that. However, as I recall, the pop version says (P) 1978 and the disco version says (P) 1979. And I recall Lamont Dozier telling me that the 1978 recording (which, btw, was produced by Holland-Dozier-Holland) was the original version and then a new disco production was done in 1979 by someone else.
But did the pop version come out in '78 and flop? Or was it just held in the vaults until '79 and released simultaneously with the disco version? I don't know anyone who has documentation on this. Pat, Do you know if it was a single in '78? As I've said before, the pop version was definitely played a lot on the radio in certain territories (including Boston) -- so is it incomplete to call it the "flip side of the dj 45"? At the very least, it seems it should also have the notation of "a radio version", or "one of two versions that received airplay." One thing I do have as proof is a cassette I recorded off the radio in 1979, and they played the pop (dj flip side) mix.
Edited by EdisonLite on 05 November 2005 at 12:12pm
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| Posted: 05 November 2005 at 5:07pm | IP Logged
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Well this is a tough call as you point out Gordon. I have only the dj vinyl single and there is no indication on the single as to which side is the "A" side. The matrix number in the dead wax area indicates a "-A" on the remix side and a "-B" on the LP mix side. So perhaps I can just indicate that one version is the A side and one is the B side of the commercial 45. I'll go change the database right now.
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bubblingunder
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I also heard the pop mix on the radio in my area of the country. I always considered it the original A side. I worked at a record store back then and Motown sent out an in-store promo LP in 1978 that I kept. It included the upcoming releases on the label and one of them was Bonnie Pointer. I'll have to dig this out to see what version Motown was originally promoting.
Edited by bubblingunder on 06 November 2005 at 2:06am
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MMathews
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| Posted: 06 November 2005 at 8:31am | IP Logged
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Hi
I can't shed any light on the controversy, only to say I hadn't heard it in NY until the disco version became a hit, and I first heard it when she appeared on American Bandstand and she lip-synched the disco version.
Given it was '79, it makes sense the disco version was to try for a chart hit.
But like many others, I did also occasionally hear the pop/LP version on A/C style stations. Once it hit, seems many stations were flipping the single or playing the LP.
The commercial 45 was the same as the DJ 45, it didn't specify an A or B side on the label, I just "assumed" the disco version as the A-side.
But I had thanked Gordon for pressing to have the pop version included on the Radio Daze cd, since I already had the disco version on several cd's, and this series was the perfect place to include that.
Side note Re: the disco 45 version; glad Motown issued the 45 version on several comps, because there is a mixing difference. The 45 cannot be edited from the long disco version.
-MM
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 06 November 2005 at 9:17am | IP Logged
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Pat, I read your new descriptions for this song in the database and don't feel they are accurate, especially after reading people's comments and memories. You refer to the "A side" and "B side" in the database. Yet, in your comment above, you write:
<I have only the dj vinyl single and there is no indication on the single as to which side is the "A" side.>
Based on all this info (and especially since the record label itself doesn't indicate "Side A" or "Side B" for either version), I'd suggest these descriptions:
45 "pop mix" version
45 "disco mix" version
LP version
-or-
the side of the 45 with the pop mix
the side of the 45 with the disco mix
LP version
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 06 November 2005 at 9:25am | IP Logged
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Mark mentioned the "Radio Daze" CD, and that reminded me that when David McLees at Rhino Records and I were putting together Rhino's "Radio Daze: Pop Hits of the '80s" CD series, we concluded that the pop mix should be on the "Pop Hits" CD, whereas the disco mix was so perfect for the many Disco CDs that had included it.
So again, based on all of the above, I really don't think we can call the pop mix the "B side".
(And in case anyone's going to ask me why a 1979 song is on Volume 1 of an '80s series -- it was the record label's decision that songs from the second half of '79 could be included, much like Rhino's "Super Hits of the '70s, Volume 1" has "More Today Than Yesterday" and other hits from the 2nd half of '69).
Edited by EdisonLite on 06 November 2005 at 9:29am
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bubblingunder
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| Posted: 06 November 2005 at 12:23pm | IP Logged
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I have done a bit of research by going through my old promo and commercial releases from my record store days in 1978 and 1979. Here's what I found:
The late 1978 promo in-store sampler discusses Bonnie's new LP and states "Free Me From My Freedom" is the first single. It also promotes "Heaven Must Have Sent You" by stating it's a standard in the Motown tradition (ie: pop version). The 45 pop version is included on this promo LP. There is no mention of a disco version. So in late '78 they had already created the pop 45 version. That's why you see the 1978 copyright on the 45 which was issued in 1979. In 1979 they created a disco version to accompany the pop version on the dj 45. They did not want to promote either version as an A or B side because they left it to the discretion of the dj to decide what was best for their particular market.
I have to agree with Gordon that it would be a mistake to list the pop version as a B side because that was not the intention of Motown when it was released to dj's in 1979. But instead of calling it the "pop mix", I would call it the "original version" to differentiate it from the "disco remix".
In addition, there are two different LP versions. The original LP version and the disco remix LP version. The disco remix LP version replaced the original LP version in mid-1979. So you cannot simply list "LP version". You have to state either "original LP version" or "disco remix LP version".
Are we having fun yet! :)
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| Posted: 06 November 2005 at 5:55pm | IP Logged
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I thought I mentioned that the dead wax etchings did assign an "A" side to "Heaven Must Have Sent You". In any case it shouldn't matter which side YOU consider the "A" side to be as I define the terminology of "A" side in the comment under the song title. If you disagree with me over what was the "A" side, it doesn't really matter as you can figure out which version you are looking for with the assistance of my comment under the song title. Based on the opinions above in this thread above, the concensus seems to be that the remix was the most played on radio and is the side Joel Whitburn lists in his Top Pop Singles book
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jimct
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Here's what I know/remember from this situation in 1979. First off, the Motown 1459 issue was the first and only 45 release for "Heaven Must Have Sent You," so the so-called "pop" version wasn't "resurrected" for this 45 appearance. Both the stock and promo 45's (expect for the white label for the promo 45) are exactly identical - "pop" version on one side, "disco" version on the other. Strangely enough, if you look at the 1978/79 charts, Motown was just about 100% absent from the "disco" craze, and Berry Gordy, who felt he was the man who made R&B "Top 40 palatable" in the first place, saw millions of vinyl sales dollars spent with other labels, and not his, and he was not happy about it. The only big hits Motown had in '79 were the Commodores "Still" and "Sail On." Diana Ross' "Upside Down" and "I'm Coming Out" wouldn't hit until '80. So they had Bonnie Pointer do a "disco version" of "Heaven Must Have Sent You", primarily just to have "something disco" out there on the label. Pat, I honestly don't believe that the "A" deadwax etching for the "disco" version was intended to be any real "hit side indicator" here - radio stations NEVER looked at deadwax. There's no label distinction of an "A" side, and in 1979, Motown's apparent policy was to issue the same version, on BOTH sides of their promo 45s (excepting short/long versions.) The fact that Motown included BOTH versions for the promo 45, and the fact that our Motown rep told us they truthfully couldn't care less WHICH side we played, as long as we played one of them. They were simply providing radio with two airplay options, for the "increasingly-fragmented" 1979 Top 40 format. As the weeks went by, we asked that same rep, who was an old DJ at our station until '72, (and the same guy who had told me the "Isn't She Lovely" inside story), which version Motown determined was getting the majority of the Top 40 airplay. He said, "Among reporting Top 40 stations, best as we can tell, approx. 105 stations are playing the "disco" side, while approx. 95 were playing the "pop" side, and that he had NEVER seen an "even version split" before, for the same song. So, I guess, by a whisker, Mr. Whitburn's ultimate book decision, to go with the "disco" side, seems to be correct, since you can only choose one side as the "hit" side, right? He said Urban/Dance Top 40 all played the "disco" side, AC-leaning Top 40 all played the "pop" mix, and that the "pure" Top 40 stations went fairly equally for both versions. FYI, our station played nothing but the "pop" version in 1979, and it was a big record for us. My commercial 45's "disco" side has a listed time of (3:30), but an actual time of (3:33), while the "pop" side has a listed time of (3:22) and an actual time of (3:23).
Edited by jimct on 09 May 2008 at 1:40pm
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EdisonLite
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Great and interesting story, Jim! Glad to know that nearly 50% of radio stations were playing the pop mix and that it wasn't just the one station I listened to out of Boston.
I'll tell you -- I'm the person responsible for getting the pop mix available on CD (on Rhino's "Radio Daze: Pop HIts of the '80s" series). I was a producer on that series, but even still, it was very hard to accomplish this. I told the Rhino folks from the beginning to get the "pop mix" master tape, but what was (initially) put on was the disco mix, and when I listened to the DAT tape masters for approval, I argued that it was not the single I heard on the radio. But Bill Inglot argued that it WAS the single mix and should be used. My producer partner David McLees and I both felt that the disco mix would be great for their disco CDs but that the pop mix would be perfect for a series called "POP Hits of the '80s". What it came down to is that, luckily, I had a cassette of the version I taped off the radio in 1979, which was shown to Bill Inglot as proof that this was an actual radio version, and then Bill Inglot was willing to (but begrudgingly) get that master tape, and it was the version ultimately used for "Radio Daze." I think if I hadn't have taped it off the radio, and still had the tape 15+ years later, that this pop version, played by nearly 50% of all stations, would ever have found its way to CD!
Edited by EdisonLite on 09 May 2008 at 10:41am
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EdisonLite
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And before anybody asks, in case anyone is wondering why a 1979 song is on a 1980 series, this was Rhino's trend -- to include the last six months of the previous decade as eligible songs for the series's volume 1 CD. If you look at volume 1 of "Have a Nice Day: Super Hits of the '70s", the first 6 songs are all peakers from 1969!
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Todd Ireland
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| Posted: 09 May 2008 at 11:46am | IP Logged
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EdisonLite wrote:
Great and interesting story, Jim! Glad to know that nearly 50% of radio stations were playing the pop mix and that it wasn't just the one station I listened to out of Boston.
I'll tell you -- I'm the person responsible for getting the pop mix available on CD (on Rhino's "Radio Daze: Pop HIts of the '80s" series). I was a producer on that series, but even still, it was very hard to accomplish this. I told the Rhino folks from the beginning to get the "pop mix" master tape, but what was (initially) put on was the disco mix, and when I listened to the DAT tape masters for approval, I argued that it was not the single I heard on the radio. But Bill Inglot argued that it WAS the single mix and should be used. My producer partner David McLees and I both felt that the disco mix would be great for their disco CDs but that the pop mix would be perfect for a series called "POP Hits of the '80s". What it came down to is that, luckily, I had a cassette of the version I taped off the radio in 1979, which was shown to Bill Inglot as proof that this was an actual radio version, and then Bill Inglot was willing to (but begrudgingly) get that master tape, and it was the version ultimately used for "Radio Daze." I think if I hadn't have taped it off the radio, and still had the tape 15+ years later, that this pop version, played by nearly 50% of all stations, would ever have found its way to CD! |
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And for that, we thank you, Gordon! I personally prefer the disco mix myself, but I'm glad you saw to it that the pop mix didn't remain forever buried and forgotten in the vaults. Most of us who purchase CDs don't realize all the hoops producers often have to jump through to give us what we want to hear on CD!
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jimct
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| Posted: 09 May 2008 at 1:49pm | IP Logged
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EdisonLite wrote:
| I'll tell you -- I'm the person responsible for getting the pop mix available on CD (on Rhino's "Radio Daze: Pop HIts of the '80s" series)....Luckily, I had a cassette of the version I taped off the radio in 1979, which was shown to Bill Inglot as proof that this was an actual radio version, and then Bill Inglot was willing to (but begrudgingly) get that master tape, and it was the version ultimately used for "Radio Daze." |
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Thank goodness you had that tape to "sway" the reluctant Bill Inglot, sir! I played that "pop" version on the radio so many times that it would've driven me nuts if it had never appeared on CD. By the way, that entire "Radio Daze" series is excellent, with so many "Top-40-Hits-Not-Previously-On-CD" included, so please take a bow, my friend. I KNEW there was a reason why I liked you so much, Gordon! :)
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eriejwg
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| Posted: 09 May 2008 at 3:01pm | IP Logged
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Gordon, I loved the Radio Daze series, and have often wondered why it never progressed beyond the few discs that were released. Licensing issues?
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bdpop
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It would be nice if Rhino resurrected and completed that series. I would also like to see the Dick Bartley On the Radio series return.
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 09 May 2008 at 10:36pm | IP Logged
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<I KNEW there was a reason why I liked you so much, Gordon! :)>
LOL.
Truth is I really wanted to focus/concentrate that series on songs that had never been on CD up to that point. Believe it or not, the first CD appearance of "Jesse" by Carly Simon was on that Radio Daze series!
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 09 May 2008 at 10:39pm | IP Logged
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<Gordon, I loved the Radio Daze series, and have often wondered why it never progressed beyond the few discs that were released. Licensing issues?>
The five volumes that came out did meet the sales expectations needed to continue on with more volumes. And we did continue on and were setting up to get more volumes out. The problem was: Rhino felt they couldn't get enough of the "A" songs for the new volumes, so additional volumes never came out. When we put together the list of songs to license, we gave a value to each requested song (internally, that is - the record labels didn't know) - so an "A" song was very very wanted/needed for the series - usually a big hit that was never on CD, or in some cases, simply a big hit, "B" songs were still wanted but not as crucial as the "A" songs, etc.
I was never given the list of just which songs were and weren't approved for licensing, but personally I wish Rhino would have put out more volumes with whatever songs they could get. I guess Rhino felt it wouldn't sell enough without enough of the "big hits".
Edited by EdisonLite on 09 May 2008 at 10:40pm
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EdisonLite
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Has the full-length, original album version ever appeared on an import CD (i.e the pop/Motown mix, in its full 7-minute version as opposed to its 3:22 edit)?
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EdisonLite
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| Posted: 08 August 2010 at 7:09am | IP Logged
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Also, on the LPs - is there a way to tell from the outside packaging which LPs have the long original pop/Motown mix and which have the long disco remix? If not, do the labels on the actual LP have a difference in terms of the song's time listed or the (P) 1978 vs. (P) 1979 ...
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Fetta
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| Posted: 28 February 2021 at 10:01am | IP Logged
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Any experts on the 12" Disco version out there? :-)
The database list all 7:13+ versions as the "remix LP
version" however, I always thought this was the 12"
Disco version. Unfortunately, I no longer own the 12"
to compare.
When looking at the US 12"'s on Discogs, Side 1 is
labeled as "New Mix" with a printed time of 6:59. Can
anyone confirm if the actual time on the 12" is
6:59 or is it the 7:13+ version?
Trying to determine what that 6:59 version actually
is.
Thanks in advance.
-Jeff
Edited by Fetta on 28 February 2021 at 10:03am
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Topic: Bonnie Pointer -Heaven Must Have Sent You
